Battle of Putot-en-Bessin (7th - 11th June 1944)

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ramiles, Mar 23, 2015.

  1. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Milner provides no source, though he says it was an arty spotter. It is not from Haller, 'The Defeat of 12 SS: Jun 7-10 1944' which he footnotes to describe the aftermath. No mention in Meyer either, though he also describes the result.
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  2. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    I think the artillery is mainly the XXX Corps artillery fire as well as from 12 Cdn Fd Regt the Direct Support Regt for 7 Bde. (Their 16 Bty lost all its officers and 11 Bty lost one FOO) . The WD of 13 Fd, which were deployed close to 12 Cdn Fd make reference to supporting the Regina Rifles and the finr FOO work of Lt O'Brennan with B Coy of the RRR. 14 Cdn Fd (and 19 Fd ) were deployed further East .


    I have the following from Kiln (With the Hertfordshire Yeomanry to Arnhem etc) (He paid for the sexton at Ver sur mer.)


    and that the three cruisers were HMS Ajax, Argonaut and Orion.

    I also have some notes (from citations ) regarding the artillery with I Corps on the 8th June.


    Thi action seems to have taken place to the NW of Putot en bessin.
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks all! some very, very interesting points are developing to this "story" and thanks in particular for the latest Sheldrake Putot-en-Bessin post #22

    At the bottom of which: "This action seems to have taken place to the NW of Putot-en-Bessin".

    When next you are on Sheldrake could you edit this slightly to include the date (7th-11th) - I'm guessing 8th at the mo. but it might be 9th or 11th, so for a newbie I'm not sure.

    Also you've put boxes in for quotes and I'm not certain if these refer to quotes in other posts I've not yet seen on ww2talk or to a quote from a citation (elsewhere) so I searched for example for "Gnr Hitchins" & "LBdr Bloomfield" on WW2talk and this was the only WW2talk post I found that mentions either of these, so I'm guessing that this quote is not from a prior ww2talk post I've missed in a different thread? although I've missed threads and posts before by somehow failing in a search query.

    As I may have mentioned I'm working on the only 2 maps to the Putot engagements that I've so far seen. One a Canadian one i.e. at www.canadiansoldiers.com

    ...and the other the one on the site that focuses on the memorial (with the map about a third of the way down).
    http://triggertimeforum.yuku.com/topic/10647#.VSZNztzF-Sp

    To add to it all of course I've found this in "Monty's Marauders" p147, which mentions "15" 24th L casualties at Putot and "75" German Pow's - it does though go on to say "a confused day like most of them" ;) to which I can agree :D : Monty s Marauders

    Thanks all for helping me to keep this all moving along! is there a consensus yet emerging as to a particularly good 'single source' for this "one battle" yet or is it still very much a patchwork quilt? :Hydrogen: (Image of me going round-and-around!)

    Of course this action - http://www.theobservationpost.com/blog/?p=132 - also starts to seem like it fits into the "overall" - "wider" - story/thread the "Battle of Putot-en-Bessin 7th-11th June 1944". But perhaps a new line of discussion around "St.Pierre and Point 103 - 8th June 1944 (until when?)" would be better started for around there? Especially recognising the contribution of the gunners as shown in this link?

    All the best,

    Rm. :pipe:
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  4. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    and that the three cruisers were HMS Ajax, Argonaut and Orion.

    I also have some notes (from citations )



    This would seem to make sense. Brouay was on the British side of the Corps boundary and it seems the Winnipeg Coy was anxious to turn it over and get back to Putot.
     
  5. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Thi action seems to have taken place to the NW of Putot en bessin.



    This was the force described above at la Bergerie Farm.
     
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Post #22 refers to entries for the 8th June.
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks all, that seems to cover a lot of it? Are there any further questions that people want to cover here?

    And to start another "journey" does anyone have a "favourite" thead on WW2talk for "St.Pierre and Point 103" at the mo. - otherwise I (with an interest in the 24th L) would really like to start one soon :)

    And have indeed done so for the Battles for Point 103 and St. Pierre now at: The Battles for Point 103 and St. Pierre (8th– 18th June 1944)

    All the best,

    Rm.

    (Re. post # 28 - I've made a note of this nr. the top of this thread in post#1 (is there an online link to a ref. or a recommended way to get hold??)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  8. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    Not mentioned here is an essay by Micheal Bechthold "Defending the Bridgehead: The battles for Putot en Bessin June 7th to 9th. it is published in "Canada and the 2nd World War. essays in honour of Terry Copp".
    Matt
     
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  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Something to add to this thread that I have managed to pick out from the IWM audios:

    Reginald Osgerby (Sgt Recce troop 24th L - an account of the loss of a Stuart tank nr, Loucelles as well as being "fired on" accidentally by Canadians: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80017411

    REEL 2 Continues: training as part of 11th Armoured Div; arrival of Sherman tanks while training near Bridlington, 1943; transfer from fighting troop to reconnaissance troop; performance of Stuart tanks; role of Recce Troop; composition of crew of Stuart tank; move to Milford-on-Sea, Hants as part of 8th Armoured Bde; waterproofing tanks. Recollections of operations with 24th Lancers and 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, France, 6/1944-8/1944: arrival Arromanches, D- Day, 6/6/1944; landing from LST and move to concentration area, near Le Hamel; role commanding Recce Troop Stuart tank; incident of Canadian observation tank firing on tank with machine gun, St Leger, 8/6/1944; long period near Point 103, near St Pierre and Villers Bocage, 6/1944; role of picking up casualties from knocked out Shermans; role of Sherman Firefly tanks; danger of Hitler Youth with bazookas and snipers.

    Incidentally there is also a brief section in there on life at Point 103 near St. Pierre.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  10. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Hi rob,
    just to added to the tank names and commander's as i know it
    Bloody mary was lieutenant Leathers original tank from d day
    Butcher cumberland was cpl Bamfords tank
    Black Prince was sgt Nortons tank
    things swapped around a bit when bloody Mary had engine trouble thanks to a german bazooka so lieutenant leathers took over Butcher cumberland but that had a faulty traverse so he then managed to swap tanks once again to "the ram" which he stayed with until being wounded. My reference was NHL and also my nan who was told sometime after the war that black prince was my gdads tanks name.

    cheers
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Quoting from this: http://triggertimeforum.yuku.com/topic/10647#.VshO732LSt_

    "On the morning of june 8th, A Co. positioned near the bridge of Brouay, faced the first elements of the 26th Regiment of the 12th SS-Pz. Div.H.J. The German 5th, 6th and 7th Companies of II Pz.Gren.Abt. launched their attack and entered as far as the centre of the village. They encircled 3 of the 4 companies of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles. When the Canadian soldiers finally ran out of ammunition, they tried to withdraw by means of an artificial smoke screen. Some men reached Bois Gervais, on the East side of the village, where they joined the D Co. that had already taken cover. On the West side the British tanks of the 24th Lancers succeeded in blocking the German offensive.
    The Waffen SS had taken back the village but for a few hours only. In fact the Canadians of the 1st Batalion, the Scottish Regiment struck back at about 8.30PM supported by the 1st Hussars tanks, the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa machine-gunners (CHO) and the 12th and 13th Regiment RCA artillerymen.
    Reduced by the earlier fights, the German were soon unable to contain the Canadians and were pushed out of Putot en Bessin by the Canadian Scottish Regt."



    [​IMG]

    And matching it with the 24th L WD for the 8th:

    "8/6/44 At 0770 hours the Regiment had assembled in the area Martragny and prepared to advance in accordance with the Operation Order No.1 attached to this war diary. Advancing down the main Bayeux-Caen road just East of St Leger, leading elements of the Regiment were heavily engaged by A/Tk guns and a Stuart tank was destroyed. Supporting artillery engaged suspected enemy gun positions with fire but in spite of this the Regiment was unable to advance.

    A particularly active enemy position was found at Putot-En-Bassin and in the late afternoon the Regiment advanced and attacked this position. The position was found to be strongly held by 3 Bns of a Pz Gren Regt in the Hitler Jugend Div, numbers of which infantry had hidden themselves in the long grass an the orchards west of Putot and also at the tops of trees whence tank commanders were continuously sniped.

    After inflicting heavy casualties and taking approx 40 prisoners, the Regiment withdrew from this position and later were ordered to concentrate again in the area Martragny."

    However as mentioned elsewhere, a number of 24th L losses are recorded and memorialised, however their graves may be as yet unknown.

    I think that both of these were in "A" squadron 24th L:

    Lance Sergeant - George Alfred Taylor: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2341473/TAYLOR, GEORGE ALFRED

    Trooper John Simpson: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2219177/SIMPSON, JOHN
    &: Fallen Heroes of Normandy | Detail

    And may, for example have lost a tank near there.

    As well as a couple of losses in the 24th L HQ squadron and two more in C squadron on the 8th June 1944.

    I'm not sure if there have ever been any pictures of British Sherman tanks or Stuart tanks in this area? Closer to Putot i.e. other than those for example at St.Leger. However there might be some more memories, or pictures, perhaps even in Canada now? Of these. Of else maybe kept by some locals in France.

    By the way, do we have any experts in these Canadian units, or those with an ongoing interest there? Or any French locals from the area of Putot-e-Bessin?

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  13. Little Black Devil

    Little Black Devil Active Member

    Here is the cover of my last book : Hold the Oak Line, illustrated history of the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade about the Battle of Putot-en-Bessin, Bretteville-l'Orgueilleuse and Rots and the area.

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    From: 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend | www.3945km.com

    [​IMG]

    "Ce volumineux pavé écrit en Français (contrairement à ce que pourrait faire penser son titre en Anglais) écrit et édité par Frederick JEANNE montre qu’il est possible d’écrire et de publier d’aussi bons ouvrages sur les unités alliées qu’allemandes (cf. les ouvrages publiés par Maranes par exemple) engagées en Normandie à l’été 1944.

    Un texte précis et clair, plusieurs cartes, des reproductions couleurs d’objets d’époque dans un été remarquable de conservation et bien entendu des photos d’archives sont au menu pour compter les combats des Canadiens de la 3rd Canadian Infantry Division (et plus spécifiquement sa 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade) de l’assaut sur Juno Beach le 6 juin 1944 et les combats à l’intérieur des terres jusqu’au 1er juillet."

    With google-translates effort: ;)

    "This voluminous block written in French (contrary to what might sound like his title in English) written and edited by Frederick JEANNE shows that it is possible to write and publish such good works on allied units that German (see works published by Maranes for example) engaged in Normandy in the summer of 1944.

    Accurate and clear text, multiple maps, color reproductions of vintage artifacts in a remarkable summer of conservation, and of course archival photos are on the menu to count the battles of the Canadians from the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division (and more specifically its 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade) of the Juno Beach assault on June 6, 1944 and inland fighting until July 1.
     
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  15. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Blanchards 17 pdrs were at la Bergerie Farm along with 94 Atk Bty RCA.

    My question is "what did they shoot at?" Which German unit did they engage ? Or was these medals for friendly fire?

    The Germans were from 26 SS PGR. What if any tanks or AFVs were with them?
     
  16. desertfox44

    desertfox44 Member

    Sheldrake,

    Hard to tell which tanks were fired at by the 17pounders on that day and which inflicted the casualties. I wonder if that might have been Panthers from 2./SS-PzRgt 12 supporting Mohnke´s PzGrenadiers. I guess PzLehr is out of the question, because their PzRgt hasn´t arrived yet. At least we can read about the used primary sources in Bechtolds article:

    upload_2018-7-4_14-53-37.png



    upload_2018-7-4_14-50-16.png
    upload_2018-7-4_14-49-45.png
    upload_2018-7-4_14-48-55.png
     
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  17. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    Aerials

    Ref Map:
    Putot_ref_map.jpg

    1947:
    Putot_1947.jpg

    1972:
    Putot_1972.jpg

    2012:
    Putot_2012.jpg
     
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  18. desertfox44

    desertfox44 Member

    One more thought came to my mind. WD 62 AT Rgt mentions for 1400 hours an attack by 10 Pz IV. When was the attack carried out by 24th Lancers?
     

    Attached Files:

  19. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Late afternoon according to None Had Lances.
    IMG_3482.JPG
     
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  20. desertfox44

    desertfox44 Member

    I take it from the german source below that 24th Lancers didn´t arrive before 14:00 hours:

    SDP Thanks for posting. Meanwhile I found this bit in Meyers 12th SS:

    Oberscharführer Paul Dargel, commander of III. Zug of 6. Kompanie, remembers the further progress this way: The first target was the railroad embankment. Heavy artillery and rifle fire greeted us from the embankment. My Zug had the sector to the left of the road and of the underpass. Our II. Zug was the first to reach the railroad embankment. At 14.00 hours the message came back: ‘Kompanie commander wounded!’ Kompanie chief Schmolke had received a flesh wound in the back caused by an artillery shell. I dressed it. The wound greatly bothered him. During the second stage behind the embankment we took some prisoners who were moved to the battalion command post. At 15.00 hours we observed thick clouds of dust in front of the sector of the Panzer-Lehr-Division. They were probably approaching columns of enemy tanks. Since we had now pushed our way into the positions, the artillery fire stopped. Also, there was hardly any rifle fire from the enemy lines.

    When parts of 6. Kompanie had almost reached the second objective, the Route Nationale, its left, open flank was attacked by numerous tanks. Oberscharführer Dargel, who commanded the III. Zug in action on the left, observed up to 18 enemy tanks at one time. These were a British tank unit, the 24th Lancers. They had assembled at 07.00 hours in the Martragny area (eight kilometers southeast of Bayeux). When advancing along Route National No. 13 from Bayeux to Caen, its point had taken heavy anti-tank fire immediately east of St. Leger. One Stuart tank had been knocked out. Despite concentrated artillery fire on the suspected positions of the anti-tank guns, the regiment could not advance any further at the time. One can assume that these German forces were a scouting party of SS-Panzeraufklärungsabteilung 12. Other German units had not pushed this far north across the Route Nationale. During the late afternoon the Lancers again rolled forward and encountered strong resistance at the western edge of Putot. They believed to have three battalions of a Panzergrenadierregiment of the “Hitlerjugend” Division in front of them. Parts of them, as is stated in the war diary of the British tank unit, had taken cover in the high grass of the orchards and in the tops of trees from where they fired on the tank commanders. After taking some forty prisoners, the regiment withdrew and was later ordered back into the Martragny area.

    Heinz Schmolke speaks about the tank attack by the 24th Lancers: I took a fragment near my spine at the wrong moment. I tried to keep going for a while and tried to find cover under a tree. But a tank found me there almost immediately and I had to climb on it, together with some other prisoners. At first, they drove with us some distance towards our own lines, while our artillery fired on them without regard for our own infantry. As far as I can remember, I saw at least three tanks on fire. The previous sleepless days of the march and the exhaustions of the attack had made us so fatalistic that we did not care at all about the salvos exploding next to us. We were even hoping for more of our own fire on the enemy tanks. In a meadow near a group of bushes, the first dozen prisoners was assembled. Some were from my company and some were Heer soldiers, while a Canadian with two pistols squatted in front of us and held us in check. During a salvo from our own artillery exploding nearby I managed to sneak away unnoticed into a ditch. While the other prisoners were loaded on tanks and carried off I was able to stay, together with Unterscharführer Gauerke who had joined me, for a few more minutes in our hiding place. However, the guard had sent over another tank which brought us out of hiding again. We had nothing at all, not a Panzerfaust, no magnetic mines, nothing which could have helped us against the tanks in any way.

    Half an hour later our armored reconnaissance vehicles showed up from the direction of Putot. The enemy tanks probably mistook them for Panzers and withdrew. Afterwards, I met four men of my reserve units without their helmets and belts. They had run away from captivity. I remember two of their names: Schäfle and Paul.

    Meyer, Hubert. The 12th SS: The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division (Stackpole Military History Series) Stackpole Books. Kindle-Version.
     

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