Battlegroup Fehrmann Tiger v. three British Comets, 3RTR

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by SDP, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    3RTR_5 is the casualty log. It doesn't look too accurate to me as they surely lost more than the 2 items of eqpt (presumably tks) shown for 13 Apr?

    John

    John

    That casualty log is way out; it doesn't mention the Comets lost at the Aller Bridge on the 11th or the loss of Brindle's Comet on the 12th! The two losses on the 13th might actually be overstated as that was the day 'A' Squadron were bogged and (I'm working from memory here) I don't think they lost anything that day. Another of life's little mysteries that makes this 'hobby' all the more fascinating.
     
  2. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    I've finished compiling the map from the four corners of the original GSGS maps, removed the modern (1954!) grid lines and generally cleaned it up so it now just needs the WWII grid lines adding. The complete file is over 13mb so can't be uploaded here. Here is an extract showing where the clash with Franzens Tiger F01 took place.

    I now also need those funny little symbol things that denote tanks etc (never could, as a civvy, figure out all those rectangles with numbers etc).
     

    Attached Files:

  3. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    I now also need those funny little symbol things that denote tanks etc (never could, as a civvy, figure out all those rectangles with numbers etc).

    Steve - attached (hopefully) is the symbol for a tank! In this case it is red as it is enemy and it has the callsign attached to it. This is the symbol for a single item of eqpt; if you want symbols for units then they get a little, but not much more, complicated. Friendly symbols are in blue.

    Hey, why aren't I charging for this?!
     
  4. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Rats - the symbol is not attached. I have an Apple Mac and perhaps it has not liked my converting the file to ppt - or something. I will try again....
     
  5. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Steve - now worked as a Word doc...
     

    Attached Files:

  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Hey, why aren't I charging for this?!

    ...because you are going to use the finished map on your battlefield tours with my blessing...:):lol::D

    Steve - now worked as a Word doc...

    ....weird...doesn't even look like a tank!....:huh:....brilliant..:D

    What would 1st Troops callsigns have been?....tank 01/02/03/etc or T335335 or 'oi, you over there' etc?

    Incidentally I've found loads of maps of the area on the interweb including the original German versions. Most of these are on a Polish web site that has a huge collection of WWII maps albeit mostly of Poland. Typical example herewith:
     
  7. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    ...because you are going to use the finished map on your battlefield tours with my blessing...

    What would 1st Troops callsigns have been?....tank 01/02/03/etc or T335335 or 'oi, you over there' etc?


    OK, no charge!

    I am absolutely not an expert on British Army radio C/S from 1945. However, I have dug out this rather obscure modelling site (stay with me) which has quite a useful thread on C/S. Look at the response by R Mark Davies 20 Dec 2011 5:34 p.m. which, in the absence of anything else I have dug out, seems on the money. He even mentions 3 RTR. Assuming he is correct, John Langdon's tank would have been A1 and the others A1A, A1B and A1C. With 'A' phonetically being 'Able' rather than today's 'Alpha'. It would appear that they dropped the squadron letter when displaying the C/S on the tank.

    [TMP] "Markings for HQ elements British Armored Regiment" Topic

    Whether you use callsigns on your map or some other designation would seem to me to rather depend on how you describe the tanks in your text. To get the most from the map I would think the names of the commanders or the names of the tanks would probably be best as that might be easiest for the reader to tie map to text. Totally your call! All you would need do is to put the designator (name, C/S whatever) to the left of the symbol.

    Hope that is of help. We have probably unwittingly kicked off a new thread on tank callsigns!

    John
     
  8. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Talking about call signs ?

    I had two lives as a wireless-op, firstly in Light Ack Ack and secondly in the Armoured Corps and in both lives we used the same RT (Radio Telephony).

    It was always Able 1, usually to Able 5 or 6, depending on how many sub-units were linked.

    Harking back to the BBC People's War site, I remember that there was a first class account by someone who had done his primary training at Bovington.

    I give the link here, followed by a section of his article that dealt with wireless training but if you have the time to spare read the whole article, its simply amazing with it's painstaking detail:


    BBC - WW2 People's War - 'Alfriston, My Life in a Country Village' by RA Levett


    My main training was as a Wireless Operator, but all crew members were trained in each other’s trade. Wireless training consisted of RT Procedure [radiotelephony or speech], the Morse Code and the tuning and operating of the Wireless Set No.19. This radio had been designed as a joint Anglo-American effort, using the then very modern octal valves. It was built in large quantities in Britain, America and Canada. They were fitted in all British and Canadian armoured and a large proportion of soft-skinned vehicles as well.
    They were also supplied to the Free French The radios built in Canada had dual dial markings in English and Russian in order to supply radio sets to the Red Army.

    The 19 set consisted of three units in one case. The “A” set was a short-wave trans-ceiver {Transmitter/receiver}, tuneable from two to eight megacycles in two bands. When the receiver is tuned it automatically tunes the transmitter. When the set is switched to “send”, the operator then tunes the Power Amplifier and the variometer for maximum aerial current. This is required because the length of the aerial can be varied, depending on operating conditions. When a vehicle is moving two four-foot sections were used, but for static use, sixteen feet could be fitted. The range of transmissions varied according to meteorological conditions but in mobile use would be around twenty miles.
    The “B” set was a VHF transceiver operating at 235mc/s, and provided line of sight communication between tanks. The aerial in this instance was about two feet in length. The use of VHF at this time was unusual and was only made possible by the use of a new valve type CV65, recently developed in America. The remaining unit in the equipment was the in-tercom, or I.C. This provided communication between members of the crew.
    In a tank, control boxes are fitted in the turret; one for the operator plus one combined one for the tank commander and gunner. A further box is fitted in the hull for the driver and co-driver.
    There were three models of power units made for the 19 set. The MK1 and 3 were made in England, using rotary transformers, which were very noisy when the tank’s engine was switched off. The MK2 was made in Canada and was fitted with a vibrator system that only produced a low hum. When an operator was on duty at night, this was the much-preferred model.
    If extra range was required, the 19 set could be fitted with a booster between the “A” aerial output and the aerial base. This increased the output by around fifty percent. The tanks in RHQ were normally fitted with this type of set in the hull gunners’ position, operated by a Royal Signals operator and known as a “Rear Link” set. This provided communication be-tween RHQ and Brigade HQ. The 19 set could also be used for Morse transmissions as well as Radio Telephony {speech}, so all operators were taught Morse up to ten or twelve words per minute.
    All operators were required to learn “RT Procedure”, or the correct speech for use on the air. We were taught to be concise and accurate. We also had to learn the correct order for stations to answer because of the risk of jamming when two stations attempted to transmit si-multaneously. Once operators were up to a certain standard, they were introduced to the Wire-less No.38. This was a dry battery operated portable designed principally for infantry use. Cer-tain tanks, however, were fitted with these sets so that the tank commander could talk to the infantry. When carried by an operator the set is strapped on the chest. Headphones are worn plus a throat microphone known as a laryngaphone, leaving the operators hands free. With a long rod aerial sticking up in the air we felt a lot of idiots walking round Bovington talking to ourselves.


    Ron
     
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  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Callsigns for Tanks were in two versions - 1) Assualt Tanks - 2) Armoured Tanks

    The Assault Tanks are on ONE net so from Colonel- all Tanks replied with A squadron as A for Able - 1st Troop Able 1Able as troop commander-Sergeant A1Baker -Corporal as A1Charlie - all the way through to the tailed of the battalion as Charlie15 Charlie
    took a while to get everyone awake and answering

    Armoured battalions were spilt into Squadrons but same system as A1A.....A4D0N....

    then B 1A - B4D and lastly C1A - C4D

    you will note that Assault Battalions were of 5 troops of three Tanks whereas the armoured wallahs had four troops of four Tanks- don't ask - just Army ....

    Cheers
     
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  10. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Hope that is of help. We have probably unwittingly kicked off a new thread on tank callsigns!

    Talking about call signs ?

    Callsigns for Tanks were in two versions

    Firstly I must welcome Ron and Tom to this thread; you guys are the true experts having 'been there'.

    Must admit I'm now totally confused with all this Able-Baker stuff; reminds me of the Reverse-Polish logic used on early calculators and computers! I think, in my case, I have two choices:
    (i) to try to fathom the Able-Baker-1A....stuff
    (ii) use the 1st Troop 'A' Squadron 3RTR Comet tank Commanders names (because they are known and mentioned in Langdons book) which would be more appropriate than using the Comet 'T' census numbers even though these are known and certainly better than using the tank names because only that of my fathers tank Celerity is currently known to me
    (iii) use nomenclature like that used in Peter Elstobs book 'Warriors for the Working Day' (NB: Peter Elstob was my fathers 'Celerity' Comet tank Commander and wrote a number of books after the War about the campaign, some fictional and some fact, 'Warriors for the Working Day', although supposedly fictional, actually being semi-autobiographical)

    Obviously now totally confused because that's three choices..:rolleyes:
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    SDP
    If you are in fact confused by the Able- Baker stuff- frankly - you would not have been a member of any Tank battalion/regiment.....!

    Think of it in this way - assault Tanks = three tanks per troop - Commander is "Able1Able"
    sergeant is "Able 1 Baker" - Corporal is "Able 1Charlie"- THEN 2nd troop is "Able2Able"- all the way to the last corporal at "Able 15Charlie" - and thus is the whole battalion/ regiment on net with the Colonel - with FIVE troops per squadron

    Armoured ( pursuitTanks) had FOUR tanks per troop - and EACH squadron is on different nets to Colonel- with FOUR troops per squadron......

    Cheers
     
  12. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  13. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    ...so the Comet tank T335335 named 'Celerity' which was the tank of Sergeant Peter Elstob of 1st Troop 'A' Squadron 3RTR would have been Able 1 Baker ?
     
  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    SDP

    by George - I think you've got it -

    Cheers
     
  15. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    SDP

    by George - I think you've got it -

    Cheers

    Thanks Tom; sometimes the simplest things take the longest. Only question I have now is that I was speaking to a guy yesterday, ex Royal Navy, who said it should be 'Alpha' not 'Able'........?????
     
  16. JDKR

    JDKR Member

  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Steve - You can oh so politely tell him he is wrong. 'Alpha' etc is the modern NATO phonetic alphabet. Check out this thread...

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/6402-ww2-phonetic-alphabet.html

    John

    John

    The words mentioned in the thread now make something else also fall into place. They were used to describe the sectors of the beaches used during the Normandy D-Day landings starting from Able at the top end of 'Utah' Beach and running through the alphabet towards 'Sword' Beach. My Dad's Regiment at that time (24th Lancers) landed on the Jig sector of 'Gold Beach', 'Gold' Beach comprising (I'm working from memory here) How, Item (these two not being used during the initial landings), Jig and King.

    Steve
     
  18. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Steve - just back from a successful battlefield tour with HQ 7th Armd Bde and I took photos for you which I attach. Pictures are of: the rafting site taken from the new Essel bridge over the Aller, F01's view down the Ostenholz Road, the site of FO1's destruction, the Drebber stream taken from the bridge which crosses it, approx defilade view of F01's site (sadly the undergrowth is such that this is not much value) and cobble stones. Sgt Harding could have used one of two tracks which are still evident; one had a cobble stone base which is still evident and I attach a photo of the stones. He could have used either of course.

    Photos are fine but should really be taken in April when the veg approximates more closely. For some reason best known to my camera the photo I took looking up the Ostenholz Road to 'F01 corner' didn't come out. I do however have some HD video that I took and I should be able to extract a frame of the view. Wait out on that and would you be interested in the video shots? Probably too big for uploading so would need to send to you on a DVD.

    I used your map which was much appreciated.

    best wishes

    John
     

    Attached Files:

  19. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    John and anyone else who is following this thread!

    Thanks most sincerely for this.

    While trees obviously grow and there could have been some felling and replanting, I'm amazed at how 'close' this country road feels; I expected it to be more open than this although, having said that, it does square with the contemporary accounts which imply close woodland fighting. The view as would have been seen by Franzen in the Fehrmann Tiger F01 is particularly poignant; those Comets must have made the road look 'full' and no wonder that Langdon and Brindle wanted to get the heck out of there in fact, as we know, Brindle's Comet didn't make it (but thank goodness the crew themselves did escape).

    I like your photo as might have been seen by Harding, complete with vehicle in appropriate spot?

    Shame about the photo view up the Ostenholz road; lets hope the video grab comes out OK. I would obviously like a copy of the footage when available!

    Photo of Tiger F01 location: I wonder how old those Silver Birch trees are? They grow slowly and the ones in 1945 were quite young! Interesting!

    Due to time pressures elsewhere, I've made only slow progress with 'my' map but I'm close to being able to superimpose the 1945 grid lines on the full size version which covers the whole Essel battlefield area i.e. Essel, the Essel Aller Bridge, the railway bridge downstream where the 1st Commando Brigade assaulted, Hademstorf and all the local woods including the Drebber Stream etc: this will make the WW2 map references etc fall into proper context.

    All for now
    Steve
     
  20. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Saw these and thought of you...

    From: The River Rhine to the Baltic Sea - the VIII Corps operational history (or possibly 'an' VIII Corps operational history as it might have been republished in a different format c1948)

    Be warned that there is some distortion - they are photos, not scans. I didn't want to stress the spine of the book.

    The text isn't detailed enough to add anything here. There is a list of bridges built along the Corps' route, but no mentiion of the rafts!
     

    Attached Files:

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