I am slowly piecing together information on the shipping of the BEF to France in 1939 and the establishment of base areas and rail transport. With regard to personnel convoys I have found 39 sailings of personnel ships including those from the Bristol Channel to Brest and Southampton to Brest. Three questions: 1. The Bristol Channel convoys are well documented and individual ships named but I have not so far identified individual ships sailing from Southampton. Any ideas? 2. several accounts mention personnel going from Southampton to Cherbourg but I can only find one such convoy. Were there in fact more? 3. The official Board of Trade ratings for most of the personnel ships is 1,500 passegers. Presumably the military were not restricted to those figures. 39 sailings with 1,500 personnel would give a total of some 75,000 but some 160,000 were sent to France in the first wave. Of course some personnel travelled with their vehicles in motor transport ships. Are any figures available? I know that there are many very knowledgeable mebers interested in the BEF. Any snippets of information would be very welcome. One day I hope to be able to post the findings here. Mike
Mike, well done for considering tackling this forgotten aspect. Do you have WO193/10 ? Weekly summaries of units moved to B.E.F. | The National Archives It's not as useful as we might have hoped as it mentions neither ports of embarkation, nor arrival. It does seem to be accurate on dates and numbers though. The major problem with it is that it does not commence until 15th October 1939 by which time the first four regular divisions were already in France and for the rest of 1939, apart from 5 Div., it's mainly second-line units and drafts.
Thank you Rich, This is largely unknown territory for me but I thought it was a natural follow up to my ten year study of the D Day logistics. At the moment I have located the dumps and depots and studied the contribution of rail units. Shipping is always of interest to me. Growing up in Whitby I knew sea captains and ship owners. I will look at the Weekly Summaries. I am more interested in how they were carried rather than who but the one will lead to the other (I hope). I do like forgotten aspects and dark byways. Mike
Hi, From CG History by Howard and Sparrow - 1st CG sailed from Southampton 29th Sept 1939 on SS Duke of Argyll joining a convoy off Portsmouth for overnight trip to Cherbourg arriving 30th Sept. 2nd CG sailed from Southampton 19th Sept 1939 on SS Maid of Orleans joining a convoy off Portsmouth for an overnight trip to Cherbourg arriving 20th Sept. Steve
2nd Northamptons sailed Southampton-Cherbourg 18/19 October 1939 on T.S.S. Canterbury in a convoy of five troopships and two destroyers.
Thank you Steve and Rich. That is exactly what I hoped for. Since the answers do not seem to be in the records of convoys I hoped they would be in the War Diaries, unit histories and personal accounts.. A snippet here and a snippet there will get there eventually. Mike
WO 167/452 12th Royal Lancers sailed from Southampton to Cherbourg 15th to 16th of October aboard the S.S. Amsterdam. 8 Offs. 190 O.R.s Met by the vehicle party in Cherbourg (No confirmation of how they crossed).
May it have been the case that the 'Road Parties' travelled from Avonmouth (to Brest ?) and the 'Rail Parties' Southampton-Cherbourg ? The relevant pages from 2 Div HQRE diary. S.S. Bruges travelled in a convoy of eight troopships with destroyer escort on 20th / 21st September.
Thank you Mongo and Rich. It seems from what evidence I have that vehicles travelled on cargo ships from the Bristol Channel to Brest. Where the personnel and vehicles met is something of a mystery. Both Brest and Cherbourg are somewhat isolated geographically so that meeting on a railway line from the North Brittany Base Area, around Rennes, would be logical. The facts fit so far. I Know that all the 'troopships' from Southampton were Southern Railway or LNER ferries including: Worthing. Canterbury. Isle of Thanet. Biarritz. Maid of Orleans. Amsterdam. Archangel. Bruges. Mike PS. I see Duke of Argyll now. A LMS ferry.
From "Short Sea: Long War. Cross Channel Ships' Naval & Military Service in World War II" From Chronology p8 3/9/39 Isle of Thanet left Southampton at 0045 with British servicemen. 9/9/39 movement of bed begins from Southampton and Bristol Channel ports to Cherbourg, Brest, St Nazaire, and Nantes. Brighton,Canterbury, Paris, Maid of Orleans left Southampton that day. 20 other cross channel ships involved in first 3 weeks alone. Canterbury (Southern Railway) typical routine embark troops in time for afternoon departure from Spithead anchorage. 0100 sailed in convoy without lights. Routine continued until Dec except for a round trip Plymouth/Brest 28/29 Sept. On 11/12/39 transferred to armyleave service on Dover / Boulogne until 12/5/40. Twickenham Ferry train ferry on Dover / Dunkirk route. Only took civilian traffic when not required by military. Isle of Thanet used as Hospital Carrier No 22 from 12/9/39. Little need for her services until May 1940. Maid of Kent became Hospital Carrier No 21 fitted out at Southampton by 10/9/39 for Newhaven / Dieppe route to May 1940. Biarritz Sailings from Southampton between 10/9/39 and Dec then to army leave service. Maid of Orleans 9/9/39 her first lift was 1000 troops at Southampton for Cherbourg. Sailings on that route continued until 12/12/39 then to army leave service between Dover & Boulogne. Amsterdam (North Sea Railway Ship) 12/9/39 Southampton / Cherbourg. Took part of 1st Guards Brigade to Brest on 18/9/39 and 27/9/39. Sailings to Cherbourg and Le Havre until 3/10/39 when damaged in a collision with Duke of Argyll. Prague joined army leave service12/12/39. Vienna army leave service to Le Havre and Cherbourg from 17/12/39 Antwerp joined in moving troops on 13/1/40. Bruges Southampton / Cherbourg from 10/9/39 Train Ferry No 1 requisitioned 24/9/39 Harwich / Calais nightly with ambulance trains. Train Ferry No 2 as above with military train and vehicular traffic. Train Ferry No 3 as above Archangel army leave service from 11/12/39 From Southampton to Le Have, Cherbourg and Brest. Brighton troop trips to Cherbourg from 9/9/39 to 24/11/39. Conversion to Hospital Carrier No 31. Worthing Paris trooping to 7/12/39 then conversion to Hospital Carrier No 32. Dinard requisitioned 2/10/39 as Hospital Carrier No 28 Isle of Guernsey took RAF personnel and equipment to Guernsey on 4/9/39. 23/9/39 requisitioned as Hospital Carrier No 26. Isle of Jersey 24/8/39 requisitioned as Hospital Carrier No 3 Lorina trooping from Southampton from 10/9/39until May 1940 except for 14/10-10/12/39 based Plymouth. St Andrew requisitioned 11/9/39 converted to Hospital Carrier No 24 St David requisitioned 24/9/39 converted to Hospital Carrier No 27 St Helier requisitioned and headfirst troop trip on 24/11/39 to Cherbourg. St Nazaire requisitioned 9/9/39. 2 crossings from Avonmouth to St Nazaire. 5/10/39 converted to Hospital Carrier No 29. St Patrick requisitioned 20/9/39. 2 trips Avonmouth to Quiberon Bay ports to 5/10/39 then released to commercial service. Duke of Argyll Southampton / Cherbourg troop route from 8/9/39. Duke of Lancaster Avonmouth & Cardiff to Europe from 19/9/39 to 12/10/39. Duke of Rothesay some trips in Sept 1939 to 12/10/39 From Southampton & Newport. Duke of York at Avonmouth 8/9/39 before being sent to Southampton a week later Scotia 16/12/39 to Le Havre & Cherbourg. Princess Maud 10/9/39 to 12/12/39 troop trips then to Dover and army leave service. Lady of Mann Avonmouth & Newport based until Jan 1940 then to Southampton crossings. Mona's Queen Southampton based until Jan 1940 then to army leave services at Dover. Ben-My-Chree Bristol Channel to Quiberon Bay ports until Jan 1940then to Southampton crossings. Fenella as above. Tynwald as above. Manxman Southampton to Cherbourg. Viking Southampton to Cherbourg. Ulster Monarch, Ulster Prince, Louth also involved. Sorry got to dash to do domestic stuff. Not much more to add tobthecabovevfrombthat book. Hope it helps.
11 Field Company R.E. The diary is unusual in fully documenting both road and rail parties, Rather dry though and little explanation of why parties were split etc. With luck, some clues that can link ships to convoys. 1st Road Party Embarked Newport, S.S. Ulster, 18/9/1939, Sailed 21/9/1939 - Arrived Nantes, 23/9/1939. 2nd Road Party Embarked Newport, S.S. Tynwald, 20/9/1939 - Arrived Nantes. Rail Party Embarked Southampton, S.S. Royal Sovereign, 20/9/1939 - Disembarked Cherbourg, 21/9/1939.
4R.Tanks were split into vehicles and personnel. Personnel left Southampton 20/9/39 aboard Biarritz arrived Cherbourg 21/9/39 Vehicles arrived Cherbourg from 21/9/39 (ship(s) not documented in War Diary) Unloaded 21st to 24th September. 4R.Tanks rejoined their vehicles in Cherbourg where they were loaded onto trains.
I am assuming here that you have John S de Winser B.E.F. Ships before, at and after Dunkirk , World Ship Society, Gravesend 1999 ISBN 0 905617 91 6? It may be useful as a general background reference, particularly on individual ships.
Mike, I think that a usefull overview will be the daily Lloyds List. Page 1 will cover the sailings from Southampton and other Channel ports. It will give the days of sailing and arrival and the ports of destination etc. It won't give the convoy numbers I'm afraid, but you can get the sequence from Convoyweb, even though it does show the ships. lloyds List is on microfilm here (Southampton) and presumably at libraries in other ports + The Guildhall Library. Sorry to be late with this we have just moved house and it has taken me a while to get straight! Roy
Thanks Ewen. Of course it helps. Soon the facts will reach critical mass and everything will fall into place. I have details of all the Bristol Channel convoys (but it would be good to know which of the listed cargo ships carried vehicles). Osborne. Yes Winser is very useful. Lots of detail. Roy. Hardly late. 24 hours since I posted my question. I know the modern generation work at lightening speed but I am not one of them. I have dates of sailings and arrivals, and sometimes the ships, but not for the Southampton to Cherbourg convoys. Thank you. Mike.
Yes, Rich, my mistake. Road party was 190 OR's. Both the vehicle and train party left from Aldershot to Southampton. Looks like the vehicles were unloaded to the "Vehicle Parking Centre" in Martinvast?
Mike, I am of the same generation and work at the same 'steady' speed! We are renting a place quite near Southampton Library where the Maritime Collection is housed, if you haven't got the Lloyd's List info for September1939, do you want me to go down and get a copy? Happy to do it and it will give me something to do. Roy.
Roy, I certainly would not like to deprive you of something to do. I would very much like a copy of the list for September. I would certainly put it to good use. I have a considerable mass of material now but I will work my through it eventually, but slowly as I say above. I uded to have a contact in Portsmouth. My fathers old Air Sea Rescue launch is now a houseboat at Haylings Island and the lady who owned it kept in touch with all the surviving crew members. Unfortunately there are no longer any survivors. The naval aspect is only one part of my study. I am also interested in the various base areas, dumps and depots, and the British rail units in France. No doubt I will have many questions. As we all know most research provides more questions than answers. Thank you for your kind offer. Mike.
