Hi guys I'll start again, having struck some key or other which has completely lost my lengthy initial effort! I was recently asked about markings suitable for a Leyland Retriever Gantry towing a 7.5 ton Recovery Trailer. I then noticed that none of the establishment tables I own (and not even Andrew's tour de force on markings) show any RAOC technical units below Corps level. I wonder if anyone can confirm my theoretical ramblings below and/or provide marking suggestions for low level workshops and LADs. Working on much later practice, I would assume that units with a lot of motor transport, such as RASC companies and armoured (including armoured car/recce) units, would have their own dedicated LADs. RASC ones would probably, in 1940, be RASC manned and would likely display their parent unit AoS number on an RASC (red/green) square. Armoured unit LADs would probably be RAOC manned, supplemented by unit tradesmen and likely to display the unit AoS number on a black square. Infantry Brigades might very well have had a Brigade LAD to look after the Motor Transport of Brigade units less well endowed with MT. Brigade LADs would be RAOC manned, but what AoS number would they have shown, probably on a black square? It is of course possible that Brigade LADs were found by a detachment of the Division Workshop, but my establishment tables do not show one. If there was one, RAOC manned no doubt, what AoS number would they have displayed, presumably on a black square? I could perhaps answer some of these questions myself if only I could find a picture of a BEF Gantry vehicle with identifiable markings! Chris
Not really my area but LAD's are normally very small. From the 1940 Field Returns I've read probably only 10 to 20 men off the top of my head are attached at Regiment/Battalion level and unless I'm mistaken for ease of admin etc they come under the administration of the unit they are attached to so I would guess they'd use their vehicles display their AoS's etc. At a guess I'd say the only noticeable difference would be the cap badge. Ps I hate it when you wrote a long post (as I did the other night) and loose it-We used to have the same problem with the old forum and it seemed to get fixed.
light aid detachments normally wear the reme colours along with the parental regiment or division flash, i have seen a leyland up here in scotland that carries the 51st highland division patch and also that of the reme colours. can i ask what the gantry is? a model or the real thing??
Chris, I don't know if this extract from the DAOS 2nd Infantry Division diary is relevant ? The comment "trouble was encountered initially in getting units to realise that the L.A.D.s were an integral part of the unit and not a separate Ordnance detachment" would suggest that there was no separate vehicle marking within a division. Presumably they'd have used '1' on black and the Divisional formation sign ?
An extract from the April 1940 markings schedules which you've probably seen :- Although relating to RAOC Corps troops, it states that they were to display AoS serials and colours relating to brigade to which they were attached. Those gantry lorries remaining at Corps would have been marked up per Andrew's book (and IWM O 69 which in view of the date almost certainly shows 1 Army Field Workshop from 1 Corps). '59' with Corps bar and the movement serial 2106 which unfortunately I can't find to check.
Thanks guys. Lots of theories there, but no one seems to have any definitive answers, at least none that contradict my theories! Except that LADs use the same coloured AoS square of the unit they are attached to. That is logical, but doesn't answer the question of Brigade LADs - did they exist? and what AoS number - presumably Bde HQ! And what about Div Workshops - did they exist? Hutchie. I need to point out that these LADs were RAOC units since REME was not invented for at least a year after the BEF came home. Recovery vehicles on the several 3 ton 6x4 chassis had a long I beam which could be used in various ways for lifting purposes (You can see it on the Crossley gantry above); the trucks were commonly known as gantries. Chris
Chris I am fimilar with the raoc as my grandfather was in it before it changed to reme, and he was a recovery driver so he would have been fimiliar with the gantry but like I said any raoc/reme unit kept its identity but also had the flash of the unit I which it was attached, Lads were attached to regiments, squadrons and brigades as they were mainly used for minor repairs as anything more serious followed the line of communication to other types of workshop such as base & field workshops
The REME Staff History is a bit thin on the detail of their predecessors: RAOC(E) (the engineering branch). A few relevant BEF-era facts from it are: My interpretation: Brigade LADs existed, apparently in addition to unit LADs; the exception being standard infantry battalions which didn't have their own LADs but were supported by their Brigade LADs. There were no infantry/armoured/tank brigade or divisional workshops at that stage. Later information implies that they got it right with the LADs. but the Army Field Workshops didn't work as they were too large, inflexible and immobile. The solution was brigade workshops plus 'Troops' workshops under the higher formations. The brigade workshops were really divisional - not brigade - assets under the command of the CREME and sized to deal with the relevant brigade plus a proportion of the divisional troops (e.g. HQ, artillery, recce, etc.),
Many thanks guys. That would tie up with Andrew's book of markings which indicates three Army Field Workshops per Corps. Chris
I know it's not BEF but sort of helps us to extrapolate backwards... Just been looking at a late-1941 vehicle markings file (WO 201/2795) which gives an Armoured Division a Divisional Workshop plus distinct Rec Secs (Recovery Sections) and LRS (Light Repair Sections) at Armoured Brigade/Support Group level. The Inf Div table has neither Div or Bde Wksps - it seems they were still supported by the Army Fd Wksps at Corps level that are in the tables. I haven't yet pinned this evolution down in the histories, I suspect it's fallen down a crack between RAOC(E) and REME. Incidentally, the tables confirm that LAD vehicles were to carry the same AoS colours and serials of their parent units, reinforcing the view that they were part of the unit.
I've just had a skim through the BEF sections of the RASC and RAOC Histories and couldn't see anything. LAD isn't even mentioned in either index. I'm now looking in Philson's BEF Orbat volumes. For example: Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (Divisional Cavalry Regiment) Attached Personnel in HQ Squadron 2x RAOC Armourers 1x RAOC Electrician 1x RAOC Armament Artificer Attached Personnel in Squadron HQ Admin (3 Squadron's) 1x RAOC Motor Vehicle Fitter (3 in total) Regimental Headquarters, Part of Admin Troop: 2x 30 CWT Lorry - Equipment Repairer, Carpenter, Driver, RAOC Personnel, Armament Artificer , 2x Armourers, Electrician, Tools. Attached Light AId Detachment RAOC (GHQ Troops Workshop) Personnel: 1x Captain or Subaltern (OME 3rd or 4th Class) 1x Warrant Officer Armament Artificer, 1x Lance Corporal Fitter 3x Fitters, MV 1X Electrician 1x Driver Mechanic 1x Storeman 1x Batman Driver 1x Motorcyclist 2x Drivers Transport 1x Motocycle 1x 2 Seat Car 1x 3 Ton 6 Wheeled Breakdown Lorry 1x 3 Ton Stores Lorry
THIS superb IWM pic of an LAD workshop in Bucquoy 5th Jan 1940 show a 6x4 gantry with what looks like AOS 2 on black and what maybe Cross Keys of 2nd infantry divison , this would mean 4/7 Royal Dragoon Guards in Andrews book , does that make sense ? Impressed van also seems to have a 2 and Cross Keys Foreground Morris certainly bears Cross Keys
Many thanks JCB for this excellent pic (foreground is a Morris 8cwt PU incidentally, not a 15cwt). My initial post on this thread did suggest that Armoured unit LADs (or attached fitters) would paint the unit AoS number on a black square, so it is nice to see that at least one of them really did! Chris
Yes anything with that bonnet the IWM seem to call a 15cwt CS8. I was just looking at this one and noted it had a winch , so must be CDSW which fits in well with AOS 34 = 53 Light AA Reg. RA . Craig
12 April 1941. 18th Infantry Division, 53rd Brigade, lists a 'L.A.D'. and 'C Rec Sec.' as part of the Brigade. This seems to indicate one recovery company with 1 section per each of 3 brigades and a fourth at divisional level. Happy to be corrected!
