Belfast lough condor

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by skyhawk, Mar 24, 2010.

  1. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    This arrived in the post a few minutes ago
    "The FW-200 Condor" - A Complete history by Jerry Scutts ( Crecy 2010).

    An exert from "July mining" on page 82.
    "Petersen managed to persuade Luftwaffe Chief of Staff Jeschonneck to return the Condors to reconnaissance work at the end of July . Among KG40's losses from mine-laying sorties were two FW-200c-1's flown respectively by Hptm Roman Steszyn (F8+EH) and Hptm Volkmar Zenker (F8+BH) .
    Steszyn was drowned when his Condor was shot down into the sea off Hartlepool by British AA fire on the night of 19/20 July. Actually a member of KG51 , Steszyn's fate was shared by Feldwebel Meier and Zraunig. The two other members of the crew , Feldwebel Kulken and Nicolai became POW's Steszyn was Stafel Kapatain of I/KG40 at the time of his loss.

    The aircraft captained by Hptm Volkmar Zenker was forced to dicth off Belfast on the 24th after the crew had trouble releasing the last of four magnetic mines . When ZenKer took took the aircraft down to jettison the mine he was as low as 15 metres ; when opening the throttles brought both port engines to a stop and the aircraft banked steeply. To avoid the wingtip ploughing into the water Zenker feathered the starboard engines to counter the swing and prepared to ditch . It was a difficult decision as the aircraft still had fuel but there was a blockage in the fuel lines caused he suspected by the long dive with the engines throttled back. With no altitude , even full revolutions may not have lifted the aircraft in time and ZenKer put the aircraft into the sea on as level an attitude as he could manage.

    Despite frantic efforts to inflate a dinghy after the ditching ( the interior quickly filled with water) Bordenfunker Uffz. Heinz Hocker finally managed to do so after swimming away. Zenker was soon exhausted but he and Gefr. Hohmann climbed into the dinghy , where the German airmen awaited their fate. This materialised in the form of an Irish patrol boat which hauled them aboard and headed into Belfast harbour. Nothing was heard from the other two members of the Condor's crew. Petersen had consequently lost two Staffel Kaptain ( Zenker was in command of II/KG40 at that time in less than a week. Wasteage of experienced pilots supported Petersen's case for leaving mine-laying to other units. "

    ( The author also may be mistaken in saying "II/KG40" , but I have quoted what he has written , ? a translation or note taking error my be the source of this perhaps at the interrogation of the POW's , from the nature of the account it seems reasonable that the pilot spoke quite freely on what went wrong.)

    You have to feel for them ...... mission almost accomplished then a fuel blockage / air lock causes them to have to ditch in the very waters they had just mined.
     
  2. ww2ni

    ww2ni Senior Member

    Hi Folks,
    This is excellent stuff.

    I received a message recently regarding a Condor which went down in the Irish Sea. Following this the bodies of 2 of the crew were washed ashore in County Down and buried in an old churchyard between Annalong and Kilkeel.

    I have been told that the hair and nails had continued to grow?? - I have asked a friend about this and he says that rather than these growing the skin would have shrunk.

    Nevertheless is there any other information supporting the 2 bodies being washed ashore?
     
    James S likes this.
  3. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Not one I have heard about before , as far as I am aware all German war dead in NI were buried in City Cemetery the bodies washed ashore.
    I did check this a few years back and from memory nothing received from that quarter would tally with lost wartime aircrew.
    German War Graves Commission would say for sure.
    Di might be the lady to ask or Robert it is there neck of the woods.

    The hair and nails - it is an old fallacy - tissues shrink and it gives the impression of growth.

    The works number , wonder what it is ???
     
  4. TK2

    TK2 Junior Member

    Super story skyhawk , Hptm Zenker was in command of II./KG40 at the time of this crash , he was a big loss to that unit . I will check my files to see if I have a Werks Nr. for that Condor , as it was early in the war it was not unusual for the Werks numbers not to be recorded .

    It seems that schnellmeyer was quoting from Jerry Scutts book, which one would treat with caution.
    Cheers
    Terence
     
  5. RAF1

    RAF1 Member

    It seems that schnellmeyer was quoting from Jerry Scutts book, which one would treat with caution.
    Cheers
    Terence

    Caution indeed, two sections in the book dealing with the Irish scene ie the crash at Faha Mountain in August 1940 and the Isolda off the Wexford /Waterford coast December 1940 are very much as was written in Aeroplane way back ( dont like to say word for word) and even quotes the Faha Condor F8+KH wk.nr 0015 which I am now cautios about.

    Never heard about a FW200 crash off the NI Coast and certainly have no such record, some HeIII's and Ju88's came down. It would appear that FW220's avoided the Irish Sea area after Dec 1940.
    Regards
    RAF1
     
  6. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Jerry Scutts book - it will be a while before I am able to read it in detail - the format reminds me of Chris Gross's book on KG40.
    ( One which I thought was very good).
    I must admit I am still eye balling the Classic Publication book on the Condor.

    J.S. as an author is new to me so it will be a learning experience , as has been pointed out it is not unusual to see errors migrating from one publication to another.
     
  7. skyhawk

    skyhawk Senior Member

    The following actions all took place within the end of 1940 in and around Belfast Lough and the North Channel/Irish Sea. Indeed at a time when focus was on the Battle Of Britain and the air wars over the South of England, the Luftwaffe had already started its campaign on what was to become known as The Battle Of The Atlantic. Local newspapers were told simply not to report a lot of these actions as not to spread panic among the population of Northern Ireland. The public had been told that the Germans simply did not have the range to reach Northern Ireland, despite the fact that local people in and around the coastal towns such as Bangor were witnessing such actions on a daily basis.

    There were many instances of the Luftwaffe around this period simply FTR. A term used a lot to describe the fate of Coastal Command crews. Failed To Return. There have been several instances i have been tolled about of the mines exploding whilst the aircraft was on route to target.

    11/12 August an unidentified aircraft was seen to explode prematurely in mid-air from Greypoint.

    Other crew flew into high ground as a result of making their descent to target early.

    7th August a He111 bound for Belfast Lough while on a gradual descent hit the summit of Cairnsmore Of Fleet in Kirkcudbrightshire. All 4 crew were killed.

    It is possible that some of these crews might have been washed up on Northern Irish shores.

    12th August an unidentified submarine had been reported two miles S/E of Guns Island near Strangford Lough. 3 anti- submarine trawlers from Belfast were ordered to investigate but no contact was made.

    19th August 2 anti-submarine trawlers Guiana and Guava attacked a contact in the anti-submarine nets at the entrance to Belfast Lough with negative results.

    8th October FW Condor KG40 took off from Borduex. The Condor turned S/W towards the Irish coast and found 5 heavy laden troop ships sighted N/W of Malin Head. The largest was passenger liner Oronsay with 3100 troops. A low level attack was made dropping 4 250kg bombs. At least 1 bomb hit the ship and the condor retreated due to heavy defensive fire. Later the Condor intercepted a distress call from the liner saying both engines had stopped. Belfast FOIC despatched destroyers from Belfast and Londonderry to protect the ship against a u-boat attack. Luckily only 3 soldiers and 1 crew member were killed and 11 soldiers and 1 crew wounded.

    Three minelaying aircraft were reported operating over the Lough on the night of the 24/25 October and unknown numbers on successive nights. So much so that on the 25th FOIC Belfast issued a warning that no ships could anchor in the Lough. On 26th another minelaying aircraft was observed from Greypoint Fort which opened fire.

    27th October FW Condor attacked convoy OB234 outside Belfast Lough. Alfred Jones freighter was damaged and 12 crew members killed. HMS Amazon an escort destroyer fired on the aircraft and was believed to have scored hits.

    On 22nd October an FW Condor took off from Bordeux. Its mission was armed recon and met sortie over the North Channel and the northern coast of Ulster. The Condor reported attacking 1 ship of Donegal and no further contact was made. The aircraft failed to return to base. A few days later the bodies of the pilot Oberleutnant Theo Schuldt and meteorologist Dr Hans Sturm were washed ashore at Co Galway. There is no records of the bodies of the other 4 crew members having been found.

    On the 1st November the motor vessel Santa Lucia hit a mine and sunk directly opposite Greypoint Fort. The next day an unidentified aircraft flew low over Blackhead Light just after nightfall and two unexplained explosions were heard. Belfast Port was closed for 18 hours for intensive mine sweeping.


    This was having a devastating effect on Allied shipping and moral at the time, all trying to be kept secret from the public as much as possible. The Condors being directed against coastal ports and shipping was proving very effective. Then it all changed. Due to inter-service rivalry and Goering falling out of favour, the command of these units were transferred from Luftwaffe command to Naval command along with a change in tactics. Donitz then wished them to operate further out into the atlantic to their maximum range and along with the u-boats.
     
  8. schnellmeyer

    schnellmeyer Junior Member

    Yes Tony K2 you are dead right , one needs to be very careful when quoting from Jerry Scutt's book as there are alot of mistakes .While there are alot of mistakes in this book , it is still a good read , sadly the author passed away a few years ago.
    WW2ni , there were two bodies washed ashore in Co.Galway in November 1940 , these were Oblt. Schuldt and Dr. Kruger who were part of a crew of a FW 200 Condor F8+DK which left Bordeaux on 22 October , 1940 .
     
  9. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Sorry to learn that te author has passed away - his book was completed in 2008 .

    If anyone has a listing of FW200 Wok numbers , can they give a "short list of possible candidates for the Belfast aircraft ?
    Although I have never used the source "Quarter master returns" seems to be a much quoted source for identifying aircraft.
     
  10. schnellmeyer

    schnellmeyer Junior Member

    Hi James , I will see what I have in my files , I know I have a list of FW200 Werk Nr. but it is not complete . Would you believe that early records by the Luftwaffe were not very detailed . The Quater Master Reports are a good source of getting information but these too are often missing . Will keep you posted .
     
  11. TK2

    TK2 Junior Member

    Yes Tony K2 you are dead right , one needs to be very careful when quoting from Jerry Scutt's book as there are alot of mistakes .While there are alot of mistakes in this book , it is still a good read , sadly the author passed away a few years ago.
    WW2ni , there were two bodies washed ashore in Co.Galway in November 1940 , these were Oblt. Schuldt and Dr. Kruger who were part of a crew of a FW 200 Condor F8+DK which left Bordeaux on 22 October , 1940 .

    Cheers schnellmeyer, (my name is Terence ) the person who showed me the book is in the Military History Society of Ireland and he says the same as you but he also said that there is another book about the FW200, don't know the name.
    I have a question for you, what would a Doctor you mentioned, be doing on a FW200?
    Cheers
    Terence
     
  12. schnellmeyer

    schnellmeyer Junior Member

    Hi Terence , I have several books on the FW 200 Condor , some in english and German text , if you remember the name of the book let me know as I may have it . The doctors on the FW200 were not medical doctors these were meterorologists who's job it was to collect weather data , if you need to know more feel free to contact me any time .
     
  13. TK2

    TK2 Junior Member

    Cheers Schnellmeyer, I will ask that chap again for the name of the book. I was just wondering why a doctor would be on the aeroplane and wondered was he being taken to Norway.
    Cheers
    Terence
     
  14. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    "Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor: The Airliner That Went to War"
    One which I will probably end up getting in the next few weeks.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. RAF1

    RAF1 Member

    Dr Johan Sturm ( not Dr. Kruger ) was the Meteorolge on the FW200 F8+OK (not F8+DK) 22-10-1940.

    James, That would probably be the better of the books, he seems to have done his work unlike some.
    Regards
    RAF1
     
  16. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    RAF1
    James, That would probably be the better of the books, he seems to have done his work unlike some.
    Regards
    RAF1


    I gave my eldest a short list to choose a bd pressy from she opted for the JS book , but no complaints .
    The Classic series one , I have eyed it for a while - was much impressed by their HE177 book which is an absolutely brilliant book.
    The downside of buying "on line" is that you don't get a chance to have the item in your hand for a nose around before buying.
    A major short coming is that the author does not list his sources , primary or secondary , in any work I find this lack of reference to be disappointing.
    ( And whilst not trying to turn this into a book review , the print is really too small - it makes for uncomfortable reading!).
     
  17. schnellmeyer

    schnellmeyer Junior Member

    You are right RAF1 , it was Dr.Sturm not Dr.Kruger . Dr.Kruger was part of the crew of F8+KH that crashed in Co.Kerry on 20.08.40 , sorry about that .
    James , that is a pretty good book on the Condor .I got it some time ago and it is worth having .
     
  18. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Justin not going to prejudge it in advance of reading it in the depth I would like to - apart from which I would have to confess I do not have the depth of knowledge or expertise on the Condor units to judge it on a quick look , in any case I think it would be unfair on the author and his work to do this.
    The other book I mentioned I will buy that in due course but I do sense that JS's book will not give me everything I want.

    Ken Poolman's book published some years ago (1977) I have - it is a good read but a more up to date look at the aircraft is needed.
    The lack of a reference within the book is I think a major weakness as the sources on which the book is based are not identified , print size is too small and I get the feeling that the publishers were trying to keep down production costs without having to increase page size .
    I am not trying to knock the book as I don't think that would be fair but print size and the absence of sources are two problems I have with it.
    Illustration wise it is very good and a quick read over it does reveal some of the weaknesses within the aircraft and its limitations.

    As to the fine detail of the units mentioned - I do not have that specialist knowledge and that is why I do miss the actual sources used to produce the book , the book is also free of footnotes and to me this always makes me wonder why , there is always a bit of additional info here and there which needs to be added , that which might get in the way of the main text but deserves mention.
    To say anything more than this I will have to read it in depth and have some other up to date material on the same subject to compare it to , I don't like to read one work in isolation so another on this very interesting aircraft might be money well spent.

    I know from some Lough Erne based ORB material I have that several Condor encounters which were quite length engagements are not mentioned - even one case of a Lerwick which gave chase to a Condor - I mentioned this one before somewhere - a total mismatch - talk about punching beyond your weight !
     
  19. schnellmeyer

    schnellmeyer Junior Member

    Gentlemen , in one of my post earlier I called TK2 (Terence) by the name of Tony , this was a mistake on my behalf . Terence I am sorry if I caused you any disstress by this . You share the initials as another well respect forum member and user , please accept my sincere apologies if I caused either of you any distress , this was a genuine mistake . Thank you.
     
  20. TK2

    TK2 Junior Member

    Gentlemen , in one of my post earlier I called TK2 (Terence) by the name of Tony , this was a mistake on my behalf . Terence I am sorry if I caused you any disstress by this . You share the initials as another well respect forum member and user , please accept my sincere apologies if I caused either of you any distress , this was a genuine mistake . Thank you.

    Good golly schnellmeyer it was just a slip of the pen or in this case the computer, no problem and thanks.
    Terence
     

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