the expression "blue on blue" comes from the vietnam war. How do Blue on Blue comes from Blues forces used by Nato in War games to identify their own troops on maps. The Red being Warsaw pact troops, Neutral being green. The colouring of forces has stuck and still used today. Cheers Andy
The Red being Warsaw pact troops, I thought that changed , in the days of Detente , to orange forces for the enemy on exercises.
I believe the term originates from the use of the colour blue to denote friendly forces on military maps. Did this SAS/SBS exchange result in any casualties, as I can't find much about it? One from the Falklands that I do know about (a mate of mine was involved in it!!!) was between two company's of III Para during the days running up to the assault on Mt.Longdon (several casualties). There have been several incidents since '82 (one of which I was very nearly involved in in Northern Ireland) but they try to keep them out of the news (unless it's the US forces who perpetrated it!!!). "Blue on Blue" is also a term now used by the British police force to denote the same. B. There were several engagements between the SAS and SBS on the Falklands. Cpl Ian Hunt who was acting up as a Sgt from the SBS was killed in one of those engagements. Cheers Andy
I thought that changed , in the days of Detente , to orange forces for the enemy on exercises. Morning Owen, I saw the Orange post but don't recall anyone ever beeing Orange. However I can only speak from late 90's until 2005 and the enemy was always reffered to as red as far as I can recall. I never did anything with Eastern Europe though (So it may have changed for them) and the wall had fallen etc etc. Cheers Andy
Drew, When our lot deployed on Ex Bold Guard 86 & Bold Grouse 88 the enemy were Orange. Found this here too. He commanded the Division during Exercise Spearpoint in September 1980, during which the Division's 14,000 men and 150 tanks took the full weight of an enemy 'Orange' simulated Soviet break-in. General Sir Martin Farndale KCB I remember seeing photos from Ex Lionheart in 84 of Orange forces see photo in soldier mag from 1984. http://www.soldiermagazine.co.uk/flashback/pages/881.pdf zoom in to read caption. also the "invading" Orange and the defending Blue. Code-named Carbon Edge, In Carbon Edge, the Orange force (played by some U.S. and West German units) took the role of the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact. Reflecting its impressive firepower advantage on the Central European front, Orange quickly penetrated the Blue lines, raced 40 miles and crossed the upper Danube. After falling back and regrouping, Blue counterattacked; its main forces hammered away across the invader's broad front, while airborne rangers hit Orange from behind. When the exercises ended, Blue had clearly triumphed. 1,900 umpires—sporting white armbands and riding in Jeeps flying white pennants—clambered about the battlefield. Over field radios, commanders were told "You're dead," while "killed" vehicles were marked with yellow flags Orange v. Blue in Bavaria - TIME
Andy, Moved this chat to it's own thread. So you never came across orange forces during your time. Wonder if they did indeed revert back to Blue & Red post-Cold War. Anyone know?
Hi Owen, Orage forces ish rings a bell the more I think about it but I'd put money we always refered to the enemy as red forces. The unit I was with except for when I was on Operations was for UK Defence so we never really had a enemy as such as the role was doing post strike or post disaster comms so we never really had a enemy as such on exercises. I did go into the Brigade Ciommanders Warrior before Basra fell to get a look at some new Battlefield Computer kit that shows all current unit intel and I saw the friendlies in blue but I'm struggling to remember what colour the Iraqi's were-like I said I'm sure they were red but I they could have been orange. On another thought doesn't the enemy on Nato Aircraft computer systems show up as red? Cheers Andy
See picture 529 http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/postwar/15231-current-british-army-afghanistan-iraq-6.html#post175192 Cheers Andy
"Blue on Blue comes from Blues forces used by Nato in War games to identify their own troops on maps. The Red being Warsaw pact troops, Neutral being green. The colouring of forces has stuck and still used today." Actually, Andy it is a lot older than that-- I know that some of the the US maneuvers in the late 1930s and early 1940s were fought between the Red Army and the Blue Army. Doc
Just found this I Corps Standing Order from 1939 regards to marking maps and it clearly states Enemy to be marked in Blue and Friendlt to be marked in Red. Anyone know when it changed? From file WO 167/124/1
Odd this should come up now. Having re-read David Holbrook's "Flesh Wounds", I remarked on another forum that the US color and UK colour systems were the opposite. Where upon a well informed UK citizen replied that all the WWI documents that he had seen showed Blue for British trenches and Red for German. As Holbrook was not a military professional it seemed possible that he had mixed up the colour scheme. Seeing as this is a Corps document, I would have to guess that there was not a standard in the whole British Army. Which seems to match the post-war analysis of the British Army as being rather independent minded on matters of training and doctrine.
Ah, yes, Orange, but does no-one remember "The Fantasians" ? I recall seeing, when in the TA in the 1980s, old b/w training films from maybe late 1950s/early 1960s - pre-DPM uniforms, but the guys were carrying SLRs/GPMGs - in which the enemy were referred to as The Fantasians. Made them sound like something from science fiction. The film style was somewhat like a gung ho WW2 movie. One, called 'Fighting Patrol', was about an attempt to capture some enemy radar operators. There was a wonderful moment during the platoon commander's briefing when he explained - in a terribly pukka clipped voice - "and Corporal Smith is attached to us from the Intelligence Corps because he speaks Fantasian..." Wonderful stuff. The lads must have great fun making the films. Be great to see these again. Wonder if any are lurking on the 'net anywhere ? Just had a quick Google but without success.
And whatever happened to the Blankshires and Loamshires? From Forty's British Army Handbook 1939-1945 in Appendix 2 (source document not mentioned): MILITARY SYMBOLS (For use on maps, sketches or aerial photographs. When the symbols are coloured RED is used to denote British and friendly installations, BLUE for the enemy and GREEN for demolitions , craters, mines and minefields.) It seems logical that we would have used red for friendly forces given the colour our tunics used to be. The French wore blue and the Germans weren't far off so that would be appropriate shade for enemy forces. Conversely, the Americans' issues with people in red coats may have led to them adopting red for their enemies. No doubt the colours were harmonised as an element of NATO standardisation after the war, i.e. everybody had to do it the American way.
And whatever happened to the Blankshires and Loamshires? Ah, indeed, yes ! The Loamshires even get a Wikipedia entry... Loamshire Regiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Never thought of pre-khaki uniforms as a colour for map markings, but that makes sense ..."issues with people in red coats" and maybe with pre-PC native Americans, i.e. Red Indians ? I guess that would make the Russians green ? Funny, I was just reading the other night "The Defence of Bowler Bridge", a 1930-ish tactical lessons book (similar to "The Defence of Duffer's Drift" of 1912 and the WW2 Home Guard version, '"The Defence of Bloodford Village"), and the "enemy country" is Industria while Britain's ally in the scenario is our old friends Ruritania...the British unit in this was the 1st Bn Wessex Regiment, then fictional, but of course existed for real between 1971 and 1995 as a TA unit...and similar to TV series 'Spearhead' which used the Royal Wessex Rangers ! Going off slightly on a tangent, Wiki has a very amusing page here List of fictional British regiments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia of UK units used in book and TV fiction. This could be a very wacky thread
... Funny, I was just reading the other night "The Defence of Bowler Bridge", a 1930-ish tactical lessons book... Found an online copy of that the other week. To my shame, I haven't got very far through it yet. Will try to dig out the link when I get home. The next question is: why did our WWI trench maps have friendlies in blue and enemies in red? Did the French use the same colour scheme as those other revolutionaries for the same reason, and did we adopt it as we were the 'junior partner' in the early days?
Just found this I Corps Standing Order from 1939 regards to marking maps and it clearly states Enemy to be marked in Blue and Friendlt to be marked in Red. Anyone know when it changed? From file WO 167/124/1 Interesting to see the order forbidding the taking of cameras into the field. Did this, in the 1940 context, include the whole of phoney-war France ? There is such a dearth of private photographs, even from off-duty hours. Were German operations compromised by their itchy shutter fingers ?
Cameras have briefly been mentioned a few times in the file. Nothing major or really significant, just that they are banned and the Field Security Police checks were on going. One entry that springs to mind was the FSP going into a photography shop or two telling them not to sell cameras to British soldiers.
When on exercise during Ex-Lionheart my Medical unit where not Blue or Orange, We were classed as a NO-DUFF unit, We were on exercise but not on exercise, bloody confusing to me. We could go were ever we wanted, mostly into the nearest NAAFI and when all the troops where dug in and sleeping in a damp green maggots if lucky, we where shacked up in a nice bed by a bar
When on exercise during Ex-Lionheart my Medical unit where not Blue or Orange, We were classed as a NO-DUFF unit, We were on exercise but not on exercise, bloody confusing to me. We could go were ever we wanted, mostly into the nearest NAAFI and when all the troops where dug in and sleeping in a damp green maggots if lucky, we where shacked up in a nice bed by a bar With Disco I hope?
