Does anyone know if the Bomber Command Clasp that was instituted in 2012 still only covers crews that flew over Western Europe. Any help will be appreciated. Terry
Hi Terry, As Secretary of the RAF 100 Group Association worldwide, I am directly working with veterans who feel they are entitled to receive the Bomber Command Clasp as no other recognition or award was given to them. This was a secret group during wartime whose primary aim was to identify and jam enemy radar, Guardian Angels of the bombers. They also helped the Resistance flying agents in and out of enemy occupied territory, and fed information to Bletchley Park, etc. And yet, 70 years on, not even the main RAF have heard of this wonderful group of 'forgotten heroes'. We are campaigning on behalf of veterans to widen the restrictions around receiving the Clasp, however, to date those restrictions remain since the day it was instituted in 2012. I hope this helps clarify the situation. I am author of some 23 publications, and my latest book: RAF 100 Group - Kindred Spirits published by Austin Macauley; not only has the stories of these people who have shared for the first and only time, rather than take their secrets to the grave as many have before them; but also looks back at their history and how and why they were formed, together with the airfields from which they flew in Norfolk ... and forward to how people today can get involved, including information surrounding the Bomber Command Clasp, who is eligible, how to get it, etc. Best wishes, Janine Janine Harrington
Hi Janine Many thanks for the reply which as helped. Do you know off hand if the clasp can be applied for posthumously? Regards Terry
Hi Terry, Yes, it certainly can, but you need to make it clear from the outset, and give as many details as possible about the person for whom you are applying for. I hope that is of help. Best wishes, Janine
Janine, I’ve copied and pasted the criteria from the MOD for the awarding of the Bomber Command Clasp. Can you tell me which restrictions you are campaigning to widen? https://www.gov.uk/guidance/medals-campaigns-descriptions-and-eligibility#bomber-command-clasp-to-the-1939-45-star Pete Criteria The Bomber Command Clasp is granted to the aircrew of Bomber Command who served for at least 60 days, or completed a tour of operations, on a Bomber Command operational unit and flew at least one operational sortie on a Bomber Command operational unit from the 3 September 1939 to the 8 May 1945 inclusive. This applies to servicemen after they have met the minimum qualification for the 1939-45 Star, which in many cases, though not exclusively, is 60 days. To be clear, servicemen must have already qualified for the 1939-45 Star before their time can count toward the required 60 day qualification period for the Bomber Command Clasp. Eligibility Eligibility is extended to those members of Bomber Command aircrew who did not meet the qualifying criteria due to service being brought to an end by death, wounds or other disability due to service, service marked by a gallantry award or taken as a prisoner of war. Foreign nationals commissioned or enlisted into British or, the then, Dominion Air Forces (e.g. Royal Canadian Air Force or Royal Australian Air Force) are eligible provided the individuals did not receive a similar award from their own government. Eligibility to the Bomber Command Clasp has no effect upon eligibility for World War 2 recognition previously awarded and does not suggest automatic eligibility for any further awards.
Hi Pete, We have veterans who are missing out on obtaining the Bomber Command Clasp because they are a couple of days outside the criteria. This can be for any one of a number of reasons. However, we don't believe they should be left out. We believe that ALL RAF 100 Group veterans should receive the Bomber Command Clasp because they equally served their country, showed the same courage and commitment, and are here to tell the tale ... which they have done often for the first and only time ever in my recently published book: RAF 100 Group - Kindred Spirits published by Austin Macauley under Janine Harrington. I am supporting sons trying to obtain the clasp for their fathers. I have veterans themselves who ask the question: 'Who cares?' when they're turned down. Even seventy years on they are considered 'the forgotten heroes' with nothing to show for it. These were young boys, ordinary people, who did extraordinary things, and became old before their time. The rulings surrounding the requirements for the Bomber Command Clasp are rigid. There is no flexibility. And yet life isn't like that! These are wonderful people who simply want something to show for the service they gave their country in wartime ... to prove how valued they truly are! Janine
There is another thread on this subject - http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/59382-campaign-launched-to-gain-bomber-crew-recognition/?hl=%2Bbomber+%2Bcommand+%2Bclasp As I understand it (and knowing me I could be entirely wrong here) those that flew under Bomber Command were awarded the clasp only if they flew on operational missions from the within the UK. If they flew bombers from any other country they would not be entitled to the clasp. Hence the problem for those flying bombing missions from Italy for example. So I guess the question that needs answering is: Did Bomber Command only function within the UK? If not then others should be entitled to the clasp and a secondary question would be: If Bomber Command only dealt with missions originating from the UK, then who was in command and control of bombing missions outside the UK? TD
Janine, If you could be more specific, where would you redraw the line? When you have redrawn it there will be others, just on the cusp, who some will feel they deserved the award and it will continue until everybody gets one, not based on what they did but on what they nearly did. To loosen the restrictions dilutes the award. TD, Bomber Command was a Home Command flying from the UK, those flying from elsewhere were in an Overseas Command e.g. Mediterranean Air Command. Some of those who believe they are entitled to a Bomber Command Clasp were in MAC and not Bomber Command, it can no longer be a BC Clasp if it is awarded to non BC men, it is a men who flew in bombers clasp. I’m not denigrating what others did but Bomber Command specifically was the one flying almost night after night throughout the war to the most heavily defended targets, the clasp recognises this and that the men who are awarded it were part of BC. Here:- http://www.rafweb.org/Menu.htm has a list of all Commands and their structure, both Home and Overseas. Pete
Hi Pete I think my understanding in post #8 agrees with your interpretation, and answers my basic questions - as I am not a specialist in Air subjects. Nice self explanatory link though which has expanded my knowledge - thanks TD
Hi both, I will try to answer your queries given that I have worked directly with veterans who served under Bomber Command for the past twenty years and more, and have an understanding born of their experience but also as an author. I remain passionate about preserving both their history and the stories of the people particularly of RAF 100 Group who flew under Bomber Command. They functioned abroad as well as the UK, and during 1944/45 particularly flew deep into the heart of Germany, as well as The Netherlands and France on secret operations, working with the Resistance, Special Operations, Special Duties, liaising with Bletchley Park, as well as carrying out their primary function of flying above the bombers identifying and jamming enemy Radar using new experimental equipment in their aircraft. Norfolk was the base for RAF 100 Group, with a considerable number of different Squadrons flying from each, its lead 192 Squadron based at RAF Foulsham flying in all weathers and on whose information operations were devised. It is true that all those flying under Bomber Command on operations were awarded the Clasp only if they flew on operational missions from the within the UK. There was a move last year to try to open this out. I have heard nothing to say this has happened. However, the criteria even for those based, as RAF 100 Group were in Norfolk, UK, is strict, and men of courage are failing to receive the Clasp because of being short by a small number of operations ... which we as an Association feel to be deeply unfair. To loosen restrictions allows these 'forgotten heroes' to at least benefit from some reward, even be it some 70 years on, which would mean so much to them and to their families. All of those who served under RAF No. 100 (Bomber Support) Group flew day and night operations, based in Norfolk airfields. All deserve to be recognised and rewarded ... remembered always. Janine Janine Harrington Author: RAF 100 Group - Kindred Spirits
Pete & TD, I think you have a myopic view of who is eligible for the bomber command clasp. 205 Group of The Mediterranean Air Force had very high casualty rates and flew operations against some of the most heavily defended targets in Europe. My father for example was shot down on the 8/9 April 1944 while laying mines in the Danube with 70 squadron, evaded capture spent six weeks with the partisans in Yugoslavia was rescued and returned to flying duties with 37 squadron where he completed his tour of operations (40 operations including Ploesti complex which was one of the most heavily defended targets in europe.) To suggest that only aircrew "flying almost night after night throughout the war to the most heavily defended targets " out of the UK should only be eligible is ludicrous and an insult to those airmen who are deemed not eligible for the clasp. I would imagine that if one asked those aircrew who received the clasp if it should be extended to all bomber crews irrespective of where they flew from there would be a resounding endorsement. I can only put your comments down to ignorance about the part other RAF bomber units played in WW2. Epeng
Hi epeng Welcome to the forum As I have stated in my posts I am not a specialist in RAF matters. Having said that I do not believe I have stated anywhere in my posts that ""flying almost night after night throughout the war to the most heavily defended targets " out of the UK should only be eligible". I have in fact signed the petition in an earlier thread to agree that others flying bombers should be awarded a clasp as well. The information supplied by myself is objective in that I have tried to ascertain the conditions under which the powers that be have worked under to issue the clasp. As I understand it today those that flew under Bomber Command orders were/have been/will be issued a Bomber Command Clasp. This would as I understand it would be those crews that flew solely out of the UK on Bomber Command ordered operations. Those that flew Bomber operations in other theatres of War (i.e. other than from the UK) were under the command of their respective area command and therefore NOT under command of Bomber Command. TD
Epeng, It is as clear as black and white, the Bomber Command Clasp is awarded to Bomber Command veterans or their families. The clasp says "Bomber Command" in bold capitals, it distinguishes itself from all other commands by it’s very name, it is as myopic and narrow minded a clasp as you will ever see. Each command had their own Commander in Chief, Bomber Command’s most famous was Arthur Harris whose decision making during the war and subsequent treatment after it is intertwined with the men who fought under his command. They had their own badge and motto ’Strike Hard Strike Sure’. Bomber Command’s wartime statistics are their own, not anyone else’s - the oft quoted grim figure of 125,000 men of which over 55,500 died - those are Bomber Command personnel, the stats that show surviving a full tour was almost impossible, that only 10% of those who were there at the beginning of the war survived to the end of it etc, all those too are statistics about Bomber Command, not Mediterranean or Middle East or Far East based commands personnel. Like it or not Bomber Command’s contribution was unique and this has been recognised by awarding a clasp to the men who served in that command. It was Harris who declined a peerage from Atlee because of the decision not to award a medal to Bomber Command personnel immediately after the war, he felt it was a gross injustice to the men who had endured so much. People have been campaigning for one ever since culminating, 70 years too late, in the unveiling of the Bomber Command Memorial and the awarding of the Clasp to BC veterans and relatives.It’s Harris’s Bomber Command airmen who have been accused of taking part in war crimes by carrying out his firebombing and area bombing tactics, it was Bomber Command whose morals were questioned, and still are, by all political spectrums from The Guardian’s online commenters to the most extreme far right internet forums. Harris’s statue outside St Clement Danes is a magnet for dullards with spray paint whenever there is a demonstration by people unhappy with their lot. If you feel that airmen who served in another command deserve recognition then perhaps, with hindsight, you would have been better off campaigning for one of their own. Having ‘Bomber Command’ emblazoned on the medal ribbon of a man who never served in Bomber Command is somewhat misleading to say the least and not something I can see the MOD ever countenancing, in your ideal world they would have to rename the clasp, ask those who already have one to return their original and issue the newly named one. This then dilutes the award as it takes away from the exclusivity of those that it was originally intended for and that’s what awards and decorations are all about, to stand out from the rest, to show that one has done something or been somewhere or belonged to a group that sets you apart from your peers. This seems to be the MOD position on other commands being included in the award of the BC Clasp, I can’t see them changing their mind, whether there are media and internet campaigns or not. "We have enormous admiration and respect for the unique contribution and sacrifice that Bomber aircrew serving outside of the UK made to protect Britain during the Second World War." "However, Sir John Holmes recommended not to give medallic recognition to those who flew from outside the UK during his Review of Military Medals. This decision was made independently of the MOD and subsequently agreed by the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals and the Queen." "Sir John Holmes' Review was conducted independently of the MOD. There are currently no plans to look at this issue again, given that Sir John concluded his review in July 2014." "The MOD accepts that some of the bomber squadrons based overseas did undertake sorties into Northern Europe, including Germany, but as these were not a part of Bomber Command, those personnel cannot apply for the Bomber Command Clasp." "Service on those operations would have entitled the individuals concerned to either the Africa Star or the Italy Star, provided that they met the eligibility criteria." “Although the Bomber crews serving outside of the UK were not part of Bomber Command itself, the missions they flew played a key role in the defeat of the Axis powers and the courage and sacrifice of those crews, who risked their lives to ensure freedom endured and Europe was liberated, is deserving of the country’s admiration and gratitude.” I’m not a big fan of Churchill quotes but this from Parliament in 1944 is interesting:- "The object of giving medals, stars and ribbons is to give pride and pleasure to those who have deserved them. At the same time a distinction is something which everybody does not possess. If all have it it is of less value. There must, therefore, be heartburnings and disappointments on the border line. A medal glitters, but it also casts a shadow. The task of drawing up regulations for such awards is one which does not admit of a perfect solution. It is not possible to satisfy everybody without running the risk of satisfying nobody. All that is possible is to give the greatest satisfaction to the greatest number and to hurt the feelings of the fewest. But that is a most difficult task and it is easy to err on one side or the other. One must be careful in the first place to avoid profusion. The tendency to expand, shall I say inflate, dilute the currency through generous motives, is very strong." Full text here. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1944/mar/22/war-decorations-and-medals Pete
Thank you for this info i have recently started to do a family tree and my mums uncle was in 101 squadron we have letters from him which have been passed down in the family my mums mum was the sister of Sgt William Rowand service number 1508403 i found the letters very sad and emotional to read reading these letters gives you a idea of what they gave to our country and so very young. i am proud to be a relative and up to us to keep the memories alive
