Hi all, Can anyone tell me what these bombers are from the silhouettes? Maybe you've got one of those plane identification books you could look in. Regards Kieron
I used to know them off by heart from every angle all those years ago! I wonder how the old memory performs without recourse to a book. The four engined bomber must be a Lancaster and the other a Wellington.
2 Engine Bomber, definitely Wellington. 4 Engine bomber, NOT Lancaster. The wings aren't "Broad" enough, also not "Round" enough at the wingtips. This shape wing, Long, Thin and slightly square on the tips is more related to the style used by Handley Page. Halifax's were more associated with having Square looking "Uprights" on the tailplane. But the Mk II had "Rounder" ones, and was also equiped with Merlin Engines, rather than the later Mk's Bristol Hercules engines. For me the 4 Engine bomber is a Halifax II. Mark.
Cheers Mark, I had a quick look at a book I forgot I had (blew the dust off) and found a line drawing of a Lancaster and a photo of a Halifax. Your right what you said about the wing so I am happy to say its a Halifax. Thanks again Mark So now I know that, what about the markings on the Halifax, from what I can work out it's ZA (O) Z there could be something behind the last Z, but its shielded by tailplane. Can anyone tell me it's squadron? Regards Kieron 1st picture the Lancaster 2nd picture Halifax
Crikey Kieron, you've done well to see ZA Z. I could only just make it out, and that's using your guess. If it is indeed ZA "Z" then it's definitley a Halifax, as ZA was the code for No. 10 Sqdn. No. 10 Sqdn flew Halifax's out of Leeming from Dec' 1941 to Aug' 1942. Then out of Melbourne from Aug' 1942 to Aug' 1945. During their time 10 Sqdn flew the Mk I, II and III versions. Using the info' (ZA "Z") I will try (Hopefully) and find out the actual registration of the aircraft. All the best. Mark.
Cheers Mark, As these photos have come from an Officer with the A.I.F. I should imagine its from the time they flew out of Melbourne. My eyes...let you into a little secret the kids microscope Cheers Kieron
Originally posted by kieron hill@Apr 16 2005, 06:01 PM As these photos have come from an Officer with the A.I.F. I should imagine its from the time they flew out of Melbourne. [post=33225]Quoted post[/post] Kieron. Slight mis-understanding maybe... Melbourne, Yorkshire (Approx 10m SE of York). Anyhow... Halifax II, Sqdn code ZA "Z", Aircraft Registration DT789. Now for the rest. Unforunately shot down by "Oberstleutnant" Helmut Lent. Approx 40Km west of Egmond, Holland on 24th May 1943. The "Kill" was given at 02:16 in the morning, and was credited to Lent as his 68th. Lent was nicknamed the "Moonlight Hunter". He reached a total of 113 night fighter "Victories", flying (mostly) BF110's, and was later promoted posthumously to Oberst. OOppss... A little "Off topic" there for a mo'. Hope this is OK. Mark.
Cheers for that Mark Would the following be the same Halifax? The details were taken from the following website. RAF 10 Squadron If it is the same what an interesting story, just a bit strange how it found its way into this collection <_< Thanks everyone for your help Regards Kieron ================================================= W1055 ZA-Z from 10 Squadron On 27th April 1942, the crew of Halifax W1055 ZA-Z from 10 Squadron took off at 2057 hrs from RAF Lossiemouth on the North East coast of Scotland to participate in an attack on the German Battleship Tirpitz which was moored at the time in Fættenfjord in Norway. On arriving at the target, Tirpitz, they attacked through the smoke screen from 600 feet reporting that other than the smoke screen visibility was excellent. Severe flak was encountered from the sides of the fjord during the run up to the target. The crew also reported having seen a small ship, possibly a tanker, burning in Trondheimfjord just off Trondheim. The aircraft and crew returned safely to RAF Lossiemouth landing at 0540 hrs on 28th April 1942. On 28th April 1942, the crew of Halifax W1055 ZA-Z from 10 Squadron took off at 2032 hrs from RAF Lossiemouth on the North East coast of Scotland to participate in an attack on the German Battleship Tirpitz which was moored at the time in Fættenfjord in Norway. Visibility was recorded as having been excellent over the target area. The Tirpitz was clearly seen and a low level attack was delivered from 800 feet at 0051 hrs. No results of the attack were observed. Severe and accurate flak was encountered from both sides of the fjord during the bombing run up. One 1,000 lb mine hung up. The port outer engine started to overheat on the journey home and had to be shut down, and the aircraft was brought back on three engines. The aircraft and crew returned safely to RAF Lossiemouth landing at 0535 hrs on 29th April 1942.
Hi again Kieron. DOH... To be honest, I didn't even consider the fact that a number of aircraft, at different times of course, would have used the same "Sqn Code". In answer to your question, NO, the 2 aircraft (DT789 & W1055) were not the same. As aircraft registrations are unique (much in the same way as cars). DT789 would have replaced W1055 and "Taken Over" the Sqn designation. DT789 was lost during a raid on Dortmund 23/5/43-24/5/43, as per detailed above. I kind of concentrate on the details of "Losses" rather than "history", except in some cases, so my sources have W1055 down as belonging to 102 Sqn. This aircraft was lost during a raid on Flensburg 23rd Sept' 42, whilst serving with 102 Sqn. So sometime between Apr' 42 and Sept' 42 it made the "Switch" from 10 to 102. Possibly to "Fill some gaps"??? Sadly, however, it's nigh on impossible to know which of these 2 aircraft it is that appears in your photo. And YES, as you say it's quite an interesting case. Hope I've been of some help. Speak to you again sometime. Mark.
Cheers Mark and its still a very interesting story whichever Halifax it maybe and all that from one photo taken over sixty years ago. Very interesting Regards Kieron
Has the Halifax in question been identified as Serial Number W1055 or Serial Number DT789?.As has already been stated the Serial Number is the only reference that can trace the aircraft's contract source,date of manufacture,delivery to the RAF MU and allocation to a flying unit whether it be an Operational Squadron,OTU or HCU. Throughout operational service there would be likely to be a number of squadron aircraft with the same call sign depending on the losses of that squadron's aircraft with that paricular call sign. Regarding aircraft transfers between squadrons,this frequently happened on a ad hoc basis or became permanent after an aircraft had been damaged and was returned to a MU for repairs or to a manufacturers base within the Group.After repair the aircraft may be reallocated to a to a flying unit having need for replacement aircraft.Some aircraft having advanced wear and tear would be withdrawn from an operational squadron and allocated to an OTU or HCU. An example of "operational borrowing". F/O Leslie Manser captain of No 50 Squadron Manchester Mk 1 L7301 ZN-D was awarded the VC for his valour in the raid on Cologne on May 30 1942.He was lost with his aircraft.However the aircraft was a Manchester borrowed from No 106 Squadron at Coningsby and flown on the day of the raid to No 50 Squadron's base at Skellingthorpe.In the Air Historical Branch the aircraft loss is recorded as a No 106 Squadron aircraft. The particular need for borrowing in this case was that Manchester availability was poor and No 50 Squadron were short of Manchesters, they had not yet converted to the Lancaster which was in its initial deliveries to the squadrons. The Cologne operation was the first major raid the RAF had mounted against German targets, ie, the 1000 bomber raid which called on every bomber aircraft that could would carry a bomb load into Germany to be deployed. The production of the two aircraft referred to can be traced. W 1055 was a B MK 11,one of a batch of 200 Halifaxes ordered in 1939, manufactured by sub contracters English Electric Co Ltd at their Preston factory with deliveries commencing September 1941. DT 789 was a B/GR MK 11, one of a batch of 250 Halifaxes ordered in 1939 and again manufactered by sub contractors English Electric at their Preston factory.Deliveries commenced from August 1942.
Cheers Mark and Harry, I think this plane could be the WO1055 purely due to the dates that Harry provided and also from the information that has come to light through the Australian Archives. This is my theory: These photos came in a collection of over 200 and on the back of one of the photos was the name of which I now know to be John Genge who served with the 2nd Echelon AIF, from this I learnt that he went to Greece and more. Well on the reverse of another photo, which is of troops on board a ship was a squiggle Empress something. Looking through various books and websites I now know this to be the Empress of Japan, which sailed from Australia in convoy with other ships in 1940 destined for Egypt, but was diverted due to the developments going on in Europe...I'm getting there. Well this convoy got into the Clyde on the 16th June 40 the men from these ships were deployed all over the south just in case Hitler's plane to invade England materialised...well we all know if never. From the August of 1940 to the end of 41 these troops were sent to Egpyt and while waiting to sail were stationed all over the place and I am taking a guess that John Genge was stationed somewhere close to the airfield that ZA (O) Z WO1055 flew from. So thats my theory, which is worked out on the dates that Harry gave for the production of these planes. W 1055 was a B MK 11,one of a batch of 200 Halifaxes ordered in 1939, manufactured by sub contracters English Electric Co Ltd at their Preston factory with deliveries commencing September 1941. DT 789 was a B/GR MK 11, one of a batch of 250 Halifaxes ordered in 1939 and again manufactered by sub contractors English Electric at their Preston factory.Deliveries commenced from August 1942. I hope all that made sense, I have uploaded some more of this collection on my site which can be viewd on: 2nd Echelon AIF If anyone can help further with the research of these photos please feel free to contact me. Thanks again for all your help Regards Kieron
B) Hi Kieron I will go along with (4 engined) Halifax possibly a Mk111 (2 engined) a Wellington (cannot work out its Mark) dakota
Originally posted by dakota@May 6 2005, 03:47 PM I will go along with (4 engined) Halifax possibly a Mk111 [post=34135]Quoted post[/post] NO... <_< The Halifax in the picture, we now know to be one of 2 possible aircraft, Both of which are MKII's. The MkIII Halifax's had the more Distinctive "Square" shaped tailplane uprights, rather than the "Rounded Triangular" ones shown here. They also were equipped with Bristol Hercules "Radial" engines. The aircraft in the picture quite clearly has Rolls-Royce Merlin engines.
Originally posted by kieron hill@Apr 17 2005, 05:38 PM Cheers Mark and Harry, I think this plane could be the WO1055 purely due to the dates that Harry provided and also from the information that has come to light through the Australian Archives. This is my theory: These photos came in a collection of over 200 and on the back of one of the photos was the name of which I now know to be John Genge who served with the 2nd Echelon AIF, from this I learnt that he went to Greece and more. Well on the reverse of another photo, which is of troops on board a ship was a squiggle Empress something. Looking through various books and websites I now know this to be the Empress of Japan, which sailed from Australia in convoy with other ships in 1940 destined for Egypt, but was diverted due to the developments going on in Europe...I'm getting there. Well this convoy got into the Clyde on the 16th June 40 the men from these ships were deployed all over the south just in case Hitler's plane to invade England materialised...well we all know if never. From the August of 1940 to the end of 41 these troops were sent to Egpyt and while waiting to sail were stationed all over the place and I am taking a guess that John Genge was stationed somewhere close to the airfield that ZA (O) Z WO1055 flew from. So thats my theory, which is worked out on the dates that Harry gave for the production of these planes. W 1055 was a B MK 11,one of a batch of 200 Halifaxes ordered in 1939, manufactured by sub contracters English Electric Co Ltd at their Preston factory with deliveries commencing September 1941. DT 789 was a B/GR MK 11, one of a batch of 250 Halifaxes ordered in 1939 and again manufactered by sub contractors English Electric at their Preston factory.Deliveries commenced from August 1942. I hope all that made sense, I have uploaded some more of this collection on my site which can be viewd on: 2nd Echelon AIF If anyone can help further with the research of these photos please feel free to contact me. Thanks again for all your help Regards Kieron [post=33275]Quoted post[/post] keep sending the pictures this way someone will know something besides this is fun to look at pictures and guess what they are
