I am trying to find out the split between Panzer Is, IIs, IIIs and IVs in Panzergruppe IV June - Dec 1941, or even better if broken down between different Corps of Divisions. Approximate numbers would be equally useful if known. Also numbers of any other tanks (Czech 35t & 38t and/or Self-propelled guns) used in Army Group North in 1941. Thanks in advance for any help. Jonathan S
Can you be more specific on the date as between June and December 1941 the OOB changed numerous times(about 24 from my info) with different divisions arriving and leaving, and of course there would be losses etc to take into account.
Well really the starting point 22 June but also, if possible, after the reorganisation of early August. But to be honest, just any sort of numbers or guestimates during 1941 as I cant find much that gives any sort of breakdown at any level. I am assuming Pz IVs were in short supply in the North? Thanks for any help, Jonathan
You mean this? http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/afv-strengths/_afv_41-06-22.htm All the best Andreas
Panzer divisions are 1., 6., and 8. http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/41-oob/ag-nord/_ag_nord.html There would also have been some Stugs, since I have a picture taken by my grandfather of one helping to clear a Russian village early in 1942. Stug batteries 659, 660, 665, 666, and 667: http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/41-oob/ag-nord/corps_10.html http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/41-oob/ag-nord/corps_02.html All the best Andreas
Andreas, That is perfect. I have been trawling the net for about 6 weeks on and off trying to find this information!! I am really grateful. Jonathan
The following is from Nigel Askey's Operation Barbarossa Volume II B P 76 Number of tanks in AGN on 22 june 1941 Pz I 80 (4 types) Pz II 139 Pz III 82 (2 types) Pz IV 80 Pz t 38 : 118 Pz t 35 :155 Pz Bef : 12 (2 types) Stu G III : 63 (only 7 in the 4 PzG )
Jonathan, I have Thomas L. Jentz's "Panzertruppen" which breaks down number and type of tank for each division in XXXXI and LVI Mot. Corps ( 1st, 6th, and 8th P.D.) at the beginning of Barbarossa; there are also operational status reports for all three divisions on 10 Sept., 1941. Let me know if you want the info and I will post it up for you. Wanted to ask first since someone else might already have given you this material through the forum's pm process. Dave
Hi Dave, Thanks for the offer and if not to much trouble I would be really grateful if you would post up the info. The status report at 10th Sept would be really interesting to see. Many thanks in advance, Jonathan
Jonathan, Strength as of 22 June, 1941 (I'm going to try listing them in one column): XXXXI Mot. Corps Pz. Regt. 1 (1 Pz. Div., two abt.) Pz. I - 11 Pz. II - 43 Pz. III (5 cm.) - 71 Pz. IV - 20 PzBef. - 11 Pz. Regt. 11 (6 Pz. Div., three abt.) Pz. I- 11 Pz. II - 47 Pz. 35t - 155 Pz. IV - 30 PzBef. 35t - 5 PzBef. - 8 LVI Mot. Corps Pz. Regt. 10 (8 Pz. Div., three abt.) Pz. I - 11 Pz. II -49 Pz. 38t - 118 Pz. IV - 30 PzBef. 38t - 7 PzBef. - 8 I'll do this in two posts, I hope it's easier to read that way (without the columns being all jumbled up). Dave
Here is the second part (operational status reports for 10 Sept., 1941): Pz. Regt. 1 Pz. I - Operational - 9; Repairable - 1; Total Loss - 1. Pz. II - Operational - 28; Repairable - 7; Total Loss - 8. Pz. III - Operational - 43; Repairable - 13; Total Loss - 15. Pz. IV - Operational - 10; Repairable - 3; Total Loss - 7. PzBef. - Operational -9; Repairable - 0; Total Loss - 2 (no replacements) Pz. Regt. 11 Pz. I - Operational - 9; Repairable - 0; Total Loss - 2. Pz.II - Operational - 38; Repairable - 4; Total Loss - 5. Pz. 35t - Operational - 102; Repairable - 8; Total Loss - 47. Pz. IV - Operational - 21; Repairable - 3; Total Loss - 6. PzBef. - Operational - 11; Repairable - 0; Total Loss - 2. (2 35t replacements) Pz. Regt. 10 Pz. I - Operational - 8; Repairable - 0; Total Loss - 3. Pz. II - Operational - 36; Repairable - 6; Total Loss - 7. Pz. 38t - Operational - 78; Repairable - 20; Total Loss - 20. Pz. IV - Operational - 17; Repairable - 7; Total Loss - 6. PzBef. - Operational - 15; Repairable - 0; Total Loss - 0. (no replacements) Information provided from "Panzertruppen, The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force, 1933-1942" (Vol. I); Thomas L Jentz; Shiffer Publishing Ltd.; 1996; pages 190, 191, and 206. Dave
Dave - thats brilliant. Many thanks for your time in providing this info. It all helps but specifically the status report is very useful. Kind regards, Jonathan
You're welcome. In looking through the rest of the chapter on Barbarossa I found a graph of operational tanks in Panzer Regiment 1 (roughly for each month, to Jan. 1942); a note at the bottom of the graph (page 211) indicates that by 28 Sept. Pz. Regt. 1 had received 5 Pz. III and 4 Pz. IV as replacements, and further shows that by 31 October total write-offs included 9 Pz. II, 29 Pz. III, 9 Pz. IV, and 2 PzBef. but does not give the number of tanks under repair. If you would like that page I could probably scan and email it to you (if interested you can pm with email info). Do you have Dr. Leo Niehorster's "Mechanized Army Divisions (22nd June 1941)", and "Mechanized GHQ Units and Waffen SS Formations (22nd June 1941)"? The latter shows attached (corps) artillery, engineers, and the various staffs that controlled them, not sure if that is the kind of organizational material you want though. Dave
Hi Dave - thanks again. I have PM'd you. Its just raw stats I am after at present ... Niehorster sounds too advanced for what I currently need but thanks for the heads-up all the same. Its always handy to know what sources are out there. Regards, Jonathan
Yes Andreas you're right, but those are the bare bones, in the books I mentioned (above) Niehorster lists the KStN for each individual unit, from Stab, Artillerie-Regiment (motorisiert) zur besonderer Verwendung to Panzer-Jager-Abteilung (motorisierter Selbstfahrlafette), which at least gives you an idea of what each unit was supposed to have (with the understanding that the units in the field were rarely up to the "ideal" of the KStn), and the notes are fantastic, at least to a detail freak like myself. Dave
