British 50th (Northumbrian) Division in Normandy

One man only But to be fair he had suffered under a tremendous barrage. He was missing but came back after a few hours. There was no action taken against him. I was under that barrage and can understand his reasoning... I thought the end of the world had come. It sounded like it.
sapper

 

I thought the author of the essay although may have made some bloomers was quite positive about 50 Div.

Yes I thought the same. I personally liked that he put the much over-used Hargest papers into some context.

 

Owen / Paul
I would agree that the author did try to make amends particularly with the Hargest papers on his final thoughts on the 50th but why the downright lies or bloomers if you prefer - and STILL get a degree ?

 

Post removed, with apologies from me to Marc (MLW).

 

Rich -
Punishment in the British Army for crimes was always severe - and should be as this was the basis of good discipline - then we had the carrot before the stick - don't know what it is to-day...but whatever it is now... in WW2 it was tough - but not tougher than that of the German Army and we couldn't fault their discipline - in Italy anyway - it appeared to us at the time that discipline in the North African /French divisions was non exsistent - the American was very loosly bound with orders being subjects for discussion rather than execution, and the issue of a 200 page book on how to do it ...Polish discipline was firm but always directed to killing Germans.. Canadians were equally firm on the British pattern... as were the KIWI's but as Freyberg pointed out to Alexander when he questioned the Kiwi's failure to salute -
"but if you wave to them - they will wave back " ! Australians were -as always Australians even to calling their General - Morshead " Ming the Merciless"

Thinking back of course there were many desertions in Italy- particularly after the Salerno Mutiny when the 192 men who had been returned to other units with their records showing that they had taken part in that so called Court Martial - and who could blame them !
Cheers

 

One man only But to be fair he had suffered under a tremendous barrage. He was missing but came back after a few hours. There was no action taken against him. I was under that barrage and can understand his reasoning... I thought the end of the world had come. It sounded like it.
sapper

Brian, do you suspect that the man's actions before his "loss of fortitude" had some part in the decision by the leadership to look the other way? In other words, had he always been a good soldier and not a constant slacker?

 

The American bashing in this thread is a bother; no matter how subtle or tongue-in-cheek it is. I apologize for posting something that has elicited such responses. I won't make that mistake again.

 

MLW -
to say that I am surprised at your message regarding American bashing - would be termed a typical British understatement - I had already apologised for any "bashing" which I may have done with my message # 6 - and trusted that it had been accepted.
I would also ask you to read Message # 15 from Von Poop who points out that the purpose of this forum is to correct any inaccuracies whether they be of Historial import or that of an Academic Critique - you must recognise that this thesis has a number of inaccuracies which cannot be dispelled by a late admission of the good work of 50th Division by slandering the other two divisions.

Owen further points out that the figures used in the thesis is somewhat at variance to the actual facts, which would need some correction before acceptance as it shows that the Infantry as always, suffered greatly as opposed to their supporters in Armoured units where we could ignore the small mines - mortars - machine guns etc, but they had to live or die with them on a daily basis.

As Sapper points out in his own way - "you had to be there"
Cheers - and stick with it.

 

MLW - we Brits can be 'tongue in cheek' at times. It's not about being offensive; it's just part of the difference in sense of humours we have.

Personally I think the debate prompted by your posting a link to this document is a good thing; history is about debate, and we don't need to agree with everything in every account to get something from it.

In my experience with WW2 vets, the British ones will have the same sort of things to say about their US comrades in arms as the American ones will have to say about their Brit buddies. The only difference is that many British veterans are more sensitive having seen their achievements bashed by the US media and film industry in recent years. The whole essence of historical debates along the lines of 'Tommy Was No Soldier' is part and parcel of high profile films like SPR and BoB. And I know it has grated with British vets; US vets have not seen any similar slating of their efforts by the British media.

No one who goes to Omaha Beach and the US War cemetery there can fail to understand or appreciate the US achievement, commitment and sacrifice in WW2.

While our vets will always find articles like this hard to fathom, as WW2 is very 'personal' to them, these sorts of articles are part of a new era of WW2 research and debate. It isn't going to get everything right first time, but it is to be welcomed.

Your posting of documents like this is very much appreciated here and I sincerely hope it will continue.

 

The man that went AWOL? Oh that was a temporary thing. He went on to do his duty just like the rest of us. Discipline in the British army?
I always remember a notice "Company orders" informing us that a "Glasshouse" was in operation in Normandy.

There are times when you come under a barrage of such intensity that it genuinely think the world is going to end. All anyone can do, is cower in the bottom of your foxhole until it lifts. It is impossible to live above ground. I expect that Tom and Ron will agree with that wholeheartedly.

Thing about the Field Company Sappers, is that for them there is no rest. The Infantry can get a rest, we seldom could, there was always someone needing our expertise. So often you would get back to the harbour area after being up at the "Sharp End" all day, then be called out again at night, to lay a protective minefield in front the leading infantry.

In some platoons there was not a single man that had not been wounded.
We had a very proud record of never refusing a task from any quarter, being a frontal assault, or mine clearing. For most we were at times completely exhausted. Could sleep standing up.
Sapper

 

In some platoons there was not a single man that had not been wounded.
..... Could sleep standing up.
Sapper

I used to work with a surgeon who was a Shore Engineer for the US Army before he came home and went to med school. He did pretty much the same type of service you did. He landed at Sicily, Salerno, Utah Beach and Operation Plunder (9th US Army under 21st AG), with several other river crossing, etc. in between. He told me that he was the only officer from the original company command group to see VE Day unscathed and only about one of 15 or 20 from the total company to do so. He mirrored what others have said earlier, that is was just blind luck as to who got hit and who did not.

Sleeping? He said that inland from Utah beach on day three (June 8), he had not slept since the afternoon of June 5. He was so tired that he crawled under an emplaced M-10 to sleep and slept for about several hours. During that time, the TD fired it's gun several times and he said never even knew it.

 

Gents

Normandy? ......not my theatre of war, but if you would allow me, I would just add a few words of corroboration to that thorny subject of physical exhaustion whilst in the front line.

Compared with the likes of Brian and Tom I had it relatively cushy, in-as-much as it was fairly late in my army career that I was posted willy nilly into an armoured unit (as opposed to my more sedentary role in the Light Ack Ack).

Having said that, once I was with the 4th QOH it was a constant battle to get enough rest, let alone sleep, between various demanding actions and on more than one occasion I was, to put it mildly, completely knackered.

My Diary reminds me of one such event:

Sunday 22nd. April 1945
Woke to find mortar crew right at my head in yard right in front of casa. Rations came up with T.R's kit (?). More prisoners. Slung my 'spare' rifle. Moved into fields.

On this particular day I was literally woken up by the sharp crack of the mortars being fired at an enemy who could have been no more than 500 yards away. I remember feeling distinctly aggrieved that the Infantry mortar crew had not had the common decency to wake us up and to give us a chance to move out of the way while they fought their own private battle with their German counterparts!

I have no doubt whatsoever that this particular mortar crew, not ten yards away from our tank, had been firing for some time but I, and my fellow crew members, were so flaked out that it would have taken a field gun to have roused us from our slumbers !

The full story is here:
BBC - WW2 People's War - Keeping a Diary in Wartime: 4th Queen's Own Hussars in Italy and the 49th LAA in Egypt

 

I have found this thread very interesting, especially the contribution of Tom Canning.

From my past reading, it appears that there was always a degree of politics between the higher placed British and US Generals, namely, who was was the best, and it all boiled down to a clash of egos. I have never read anything anywhere from the Troops that were doing the physical fighting where there was not a mutual admiration; albeit I don't think the Brit and US always understood each others methods, etc.

I have a very old WWII film - They Were Not Divided (1950) - about an American in the Guards Armoured Div, where he says something, about our diffreneces/similarities, like "we don't think the same way, but we think the same things" and this was about fighting for the right to live in freedom, etc.

On the same theme, I have for some time tried to find written material covering the 9th US Army fighting under 'Monty' in 21st Army Group and how they found the experience; and not just the Generals, who may have had an axe to grind. I started looking for material from General Simpson (US), but got nowhere. Anyone out there able to to point me in the right direction? MLW, Slipdigit - anything States Side? I'd be much obliged!

Kind regards,

Steve.

 

Steve Mac
you are right in saying that there is not much about Gen Simpson and his 9th US Division - however the fact that Monty wanted him in his army group is very significant - and I find that the 9th US Div fought alongside the British 78th Division at Centuripe - Bronte and Randozza and so Monty had already noted his skill in commanding a division in a few tough battles in Sicily -and therefore had no problems in having him - and was a big loss when he was taken away to encircle the Ruhr with Bradley's group...
Cheers

 

I can't seem to get this. Can someone send it to me please?

 

Good morning Tom,

I will have a look for material on US 9th Division fighting alongside the British 78th Division at Centuripe - Bronte and Randozza. If you are aware of any reading material in this respect, I would be much obliged for your recommendations.

Many thanks,

Steve.

 

Steve Mac-
The fighting with 9th US Div is mentioned in Ken Ford's book - "The Battleaxe Division" - Chapter 7 - The End in Sicily - ISBN - 0 - 7509 - 3199-X
cheers