British Pow Losses On Italian Ship - Ariosto.

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Ralph B, Oct 31, 2005.

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  1. Ralph B

    Ralph B Junior Member

    Hi all,

    This is a bit of a long shot but worth a go! Last year I met and interviewed a veteran from the 1st Bn, Welch Regt who fought in Crete and then North Africa. He was captured in North Africa and taken on an Italian ship with many other POWs from Tripoli heading to Sicily.

    He is unsure of the date but thinks it was in January or February 1942. He and many of the other POWs were put in the forward hold. The ship he was on left Tripoli at 2.30 – 3.00pm and he says that they had only been sailing for a few hours when they were torpedoed at about 6.00pm (by the Royal Navy) and the ship sunk. The torpedo struck the forward hold where the POWs were packed and killed many. He managed to escape and spent four hours in the water until picked up by an Italian destroyer. He told me that this destroyer picked up 18 POWs and went back to Tripoli. As far as he is aware, his group of POW survivors was the only one that went back to Tripoli – all the other men picked up were taken on to Sicily. He was in Tripoli for a week and was then loaded on to another ship and, thankfully, had a safe passage to Sicily.

    He knows that a lot of his mates went down with this Italian ship and would like to know what ship she was. He has asked me to see if I can find out for him. He has been told before that the ship was 4,170 ton ‘Ariosto’ which was torpedoed by the British submarine P38, commanded by Lt. R.J. Hemingway DSC RN, and sunk on 15 February 1942. I have had a Google search and found that 138 Allied POWs were lost on the ‘Ariosto’. Incidentally, the P38 was sunk herself the Italian destroyer Circe on 23rd February 1942. It would appear to me that the ship he was on WAS the ‘Ariosto’ but I was wondering if there are any Italian Navy/POW/Mediterranean experts out there who might have a better idea of the losses of British POWs on Italian ships in 1942?

    I know it’s a long shot but it’s worth a go. I have asked a naval historian I know and he is unable to help. I will also be asking the Naval Historical Branch but don’t hold out much hope.

    Any info or recommendations for further reading/research would be gratefully received. It would be nice to have a definitive answer for this 86-year old man as it is something he has always wondered about for the last 63 years.

    I have posted this in ‘The War in North Africa and the Mediterranean’ and ‘War at Sea’ as I am unsure which forum it should be in. Hope that’s okay.

    Many thanks
     
    Ralph B, Oct 31, 2005
    #1
  2. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    The New Zealand Official History volume "Prisoners of War" should have all the details on this event. I remember it vaguely myself. The volume is on the web now.
     
    Kiwiwriter, Nov 7, 2005
    #2
  3. Ralph B

    Ralph B Junior Member

    David,

    Thanks for your reply. I have had a look in the source you recommended and am unable to find any mention of it. There is a mention of an Italian ship being torpedoed with POW loss of life:

    'On 8 December a large draft of 2100 had left on the Jantzen, an 8000-ton cargo vessel, with rations sufficient for the 36-hour dash across to Italy. In the middle of the next afternoon, just off Cape Methoni, near Pilos on the south-west coast of the Greek Peloponnese, she was struck by a torpedo in one of the forward holds. Five hundred or more of the prisoners packed there were killed, and the hatchboards falling in with men lying on them killed others as they crashed below.'

    However, this does not tie in with the dates given to me by the veteran involved. Have you any other ideas where I could look? I have exhausted Google's search facility with this so far!

    Thanks
     
    Ralph B, Nov 29, 2005
    #3
  4. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (Ralph B @ Nov 29 2005, 09:36 PM) [post=42235]David,

    Thanks for your reply. I have had a look in the source you recommended and am unable to find any mention of it. There is a mention of an Italian ship being torpedoed with POW loss of life:

    'On 8 December a large draft of 2100 had left on the Jantzen, an 8000-ton cargo vessel, with rations sufficient for the 36-hour dash across to Italy. In the middle of the next afternoon, just off Cape Methoni, near Pilos on the south-west coast of the Greek Peloponnese, she was struck by a torpedo in one of the forward holds. Five hundred or more of the prisoners packed there were killed, and the hatchboards falling in with men lying on them killed others as they crashed below.'

    However, this does not tie in with the dates given to me by the veteran involved. Have you any other ideas where I could look? I have exhausted Google's search facility with this so far!

    Thanks
    [/b]

    What about this one Ralph?

    SS SCILLIN (November 14, 1942)

    Italian cargo/passenger ship en route from Tripoli to Sicily with about 815 Commonwealth prisoners-of-war on board, was torpedoed by the British submarine HMS Sahib (Lt. John Bromage) 10 miles north of Cape Milazzo in the Tyrrhenian Sea. The Sahib rescued 27 POW's from the water (26 British and one South African) plus the Scillin's captain and 45 Italian crew members. Only then, when the commander heard the survivors speaking English, did he realize that he had sunk a ship carrying British prisoners-of-war and some Italian soldiers and had drowned 783 men. At a subsequent inquiry into this 'friendly fire' tragedy, Lt. Bromage was cleared of any wrongdoing as the ship was unmarked and at the time he firmly believed that the ship was carrying Italian troops. The Ministry of Defence kept this incident a closely guarded secret for fifty-four years, telling relatives a pack of lies, maintaining that they had died while prisoners-of-war in Italian camps or simply 'lost at sea'. It was not until 1996, after repeated requests for information from the families of the drowned men that the truth came out. The Sahib was attacked by bombs from escort German Ju-88s and depth charges from the Italian corvette Gabbiano in the counter attack immediately after the sinking. Badly damaged, the Sahib was later abandoned and scuttled.

    SEBASTIANO VENIER (December 9, 1941)

    Italian motorship of 6,310 tons, built in Amsterdam in 1939 under the name Jason or Jantzen. Requisitioned by the Italian Navy and renamed Sebastiano Venier, the ship had left Benghazi harbour with around 2,000 British prisoners of war including black South African troops, New Zealanders and Australians, all captured by the Germans in North Africa. Five miles south of Navarino on the Greek Peloponnese, the ship was attacked by the British submarine HMS Porpoise. She was not flying a P.O.W. flag. Hit by a torpedo between the No.1 and No.2 hold on the starboard side, the force of the explosion hurled the heavy hatchway covers to mast height, the falling timbers killing dozens of men trying to escape from the hold. From the flooded No.1 hold only five men survived. Most of the panic stricken crew abandoned the ship taking all the lifeboats. The Italian hospital ship Arno appeared on the scene but ploughed its way through the men struggling in the water and kept on sailing, its priority being the rescue of the crew of a German ship sunk nearby. A total of 320 lives were lost among them 309 British P.O.W.s, including 45 New Zealanders. Eleven Italian soldiers also died. The ship did not sink but managed to reach the shore at Point Methoni near Pilos where it was beached. All prisoners who managed to reach the shore were confronted by hundreds of Italian occupation troops and were taken to a makeshift camp where during the next few months many died from frostbite and disease. In May, 1942, the prisoners were transferred to Campo 85 at Tuturano in Italy.

    NINO BIXIO (August 17, 1942)

    Italian troop transport (7,137 tons) sunk in the Mediterranean between Libya and Sicily, by the British submarine HMS Turbulent. She was carrying New Zealand prisoners of war and around 400 French P.O.W.s captured in North Africa. The Nino Bixio was hit by two torpedoes, one exploding in the prisoners hold and killing many. The injured were brought up on deck and attended to by medical officers. The badly damaged Nino Bixio was taken in tow by one of its escorting destroyers and towed to Navarino in southern Greece. There the dead prisoners were buried, the rest being shipped, via Corinth, to a prisoner of war camp near Bari in Italy. A total of 118 New Zealanders lost their lives.
     
    spidge, Nov 29, 2005
    #4
  5. Ralph B

    Ralph B Junior Member

    Spidge,

    These is interesting information. Where did you get them from? Were they in the NZ archives too?

    I'll put these ships names to the veteran but I am not sure if these will be a possibility as he is pretty adamant that it was around Jan/Feb 1942. If you can tell me where to look then I'll see what I can dig up and let you know.

    Cheers
    Ralph
     
    Ralph B, Nov 29, 2005
    #5
  6. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (Ralph B @ Nov 30 2005, 01:16 AM) [post=42247]Spidge,

    These is interesting information. Where did you get them from? Were they in the NZ archives too?

    I'll put these ships names to the veteran but I am not sure if these will be a possibility as he is pretty adamant that it was around Jan/Feb 1942. If you can tell me where to look then I'll see what I can dig up and let you know.

    Cheers
    Ralph
    [/b]

    My apologies Ralph,

    http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/1943.html

    There is also another site I use quite alot.

    http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/maritime-1.html

    Cheers


    Geoff
     
    spidge, Nov 30, 2005
    #6
  7. Montys Foxhounds

    Montys Foxhounds Member

    I posted this answer on another thread, but the ship you are looking for is the Tembien, the Ariosta was sunk later in the year.

    Regards - MF.

    Also,

    David and Spidge,

    The Jantzen is in fact the "Jason" a dutch ship, taken over by the Italians and re-named the "Sebastiano Venier" sunk 9.12.41. by a Brit sub.


    Regards - MF

    I have been researching these losses for years if you want a full list, let me know. However, only NZ losses are aceppted by the CWGC. Plus the one ship Scillin.

    If you check out the CWGC lists for the Nino Bixio for example you will only find NZ losses, however, the total loss was over 300.

    For the rest of the casualties you have to go through the CWGC Register for the Alamein Memorial, from the 11,000 names more than half died at sea in friendly fire incidents.

    Regards MF
     
    Montys Foxhounds, Dec 9, 2005
    #7
  8. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (Montys Foxhounds @ Dec 9 2005, 04:04 PM) [post=42881]I posted this answer on another thread, but the ship you are looking for is the Tembien, the Ariosta was sunk later in the year.

    Regards - MF.

    Also,

    David and Spidge,

    The Jantzen is in fact the "Jason" a dutch ship, taken over by the Italians and re-named the "Sebastiano Venier" sunk 9.12.41. by a Brit sub.


    Regards - MF

    I have been researching these losses for years if you want a full list, let me know. However, only NZ losses are aceppted by the CWGC. Plus the one ship Scillin.

    If you check out the CWGC lists for the Nino Bixio for example you will only find NZ losses, however, the total loss was over 300.

    For the rest of the casualties you have to go through the CWGC Register for the Alamein Memorial, from the 11,000 names more than half died at sea in friendly fire incidents.

    Regards MF
    [/b]

    Well done MF.

    I knew I had this somewhere however it is good to get a result.

    You can find a bit more about the Malta Submarine Force here.

    http://web.ukonline.co.uk/chalcraft/sm/malta.html


    Geoff
     
    spidge, Dec 9, 2005
    #8
  9. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hi,
    the loss of P.O.W.at sea has been my research subject for over 14yrs.Most of what you find on the web comes from my work. Including that mentioned. The first ship I came across was the Sebastiano Venier 9/12/41. Torpedoed and then beached at Cape Methoni.The second was the Ariosto,15/2/42. The third was the Tembien 27/2/42.Then came Ogaden 12/8/42. The Nino Bixio 17/8/42,the Loreto was sunk 13/10/42 and then the Scillin on the 14/11/42,this is the ship my Father died on.
    In the 11 months over 2,000 Allied P.O.W. Died in transit from North Africa.
    There were others such as the Citta di Genoa 21/1/43 and the Petrella 8/2/44 which was carrying Italian P.O.W. There were somewhere in the region of 2.500 casualties in the latter.
    At present there is an article I wrote in the current Royal Artillery Journal that tells of how over 300 members of the Royal Artillery died on the Ship.
    It also tells the roll ULTRA Intelligence played in the interception of the ship.

    There is a Memorial at the National Memorial Arboretum that I Commissioned just over three years ago. Three survivors attended, one from the Scillin and two from the Ariosto.
    There are copies of some of my research in the Imperial War Museum and quite a lot in the Defence Library in Wellington New Zealand.I also did an exercise for a friend in Melbourne by creating casualty lists of Australians lost at sea as P.O.W.
    It is possible that the man mentioned was on the Tembien as there were some members of his Regiment lost on this ship.Is the man you refer to Tom Williams

    ADM199
     
    ADM199, Nov 23, 2006
    #9
    Mr Jinks and dbf like this.
  10. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    ARIOSTO sunk Sunday 15th February 1942 by P38 off Mahdia. (Tunisia)
    Of the 300 Allied P.O.W. aboard approximately 140 lost their lives.
    Another"Friendly Fire" incident of WW11.
     
    ADM199, Feb 14, 2007
    #10
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Between January 1941 and December 1942, the Italians lost 171 ships in the Mediterranean, totalling over half a million tons. A high proportion of those losses were inflicted by the submarines of Malta, supported by those from Alexandria/Beirut and Gibraltar. Losing half a million tons of shipping was key to the Axis defeat in North Africa. However, to this fine record we must add some sad details. Unbeknown to the commanders of the successful submarines, some of the Italian shipping sent to the bottom of the Mediterranean carried British and Allied Prisoners of War:
    PORPOISE (Lt Cdr Pizey) of the 3rd Flotilla, torpedoed the Sebastiano Venier 9/12/41. She was beached at Methoni. In excess of 400 P.O.W.s were lost.
    P38 (Lt. Hemmingway) sank the Ariosto 15/2/42. 138 P.O.W.s lost.
    UPHOLDER (Lt Cdr Wanklyn) sank the Tembien 27/2/42. More than 400 P.O.W.s lost.
    TURBULENT (Cdr. Linton) (3rd Flotilla) torpedoed Nino Bixio 17/8/42. 336 P.O.W.s lost.
    UNRUFFLED (Lt. Stevens) sank Loreto 13/10/42. 130 P.O.W.s lost.
    SAHIB (Lt. Bromage) sank Scillin 14/11/42. 787 P.O.W.s lost.



    British Submarines of World War Two - Malta Force Submarines


    P38 herself was later sunk.
    British Submarines of World War Two - Part 5


    <TABLE class=special cellSpacing=2 borderColorDark=white cellPadding=2 borderColorLight=black border=2><TBODY><TR><TD>Name</TD><TD>Class</TD><TD>Pennant </TD><TD>Crew</TD><TD>Built</TD><TD>Builder</TD><TD>Disposal Date </TD><TD>Method</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    <TABLE class=special cellSpacing=2 borderColorDark=white cellPadding=2 borderColorLight=black border=2><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>P38 </TD><TD>U2 </TD><TD>P38</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>9 Jul 41





    </TD><TD>Vickers Armstrong Barrow</TD><TD>23-Feb-42 </TD><TD>War Loss </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=8>Lt. R.J. Hemingway DSC RN. Sank the Ariosto, 4,170 tons, 15/2/42 - 138 Allied POWs lost. P38 left Malta 16-Feb-1942 to intercept a convoy off Tripoli. By the 23rd she was in position as the convoy hove into view. Amongst the convoy was the Italian destroyer Circe. At 0800 the Circe reported contact with a submarine and the warships turned to attack. A periscope was sighted but was quickly replaced by bubbles as the submarine dived realising it had been spotted. At 1050 after a flurry of attacks P38 rose stern first out of the water, her propellers turning wildly, before crashing back beneath the waves. A large patch of oil appeared on the surface as well as debris - clear evidence of the submarine’s destruction. Sunk east of Tripoli, western Libya (c 32-45'N, 15-00'E) - 10th Flotilla</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



    This chap was one of the Italians killed.
    Istria on the Internet - People

    [​IMG]
    Giuseppe Iurman (It. Giormani)
    ( -2/15/42)

    P38's Captain CWGC :: Casualty Details

    <TABLE class=datatable cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="97%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR id=tr_name><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Name:</TH><TD id=td_name>HEMINGWAY, ROWLAND JOHN</TD></TR><TR id=tr_initials><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Initials:</TH><TD id=td_initials>R J</TD></TR><TR id=tr_nationality><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Nationality:</TH><TD id=td_nationality>United Kingdom</TD></TR><TR id=tr_rank><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Rank:</TH><TD id=td_rank>Lieutenant</TD></TR><TR id=tr_regiment><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Regiment/Service:</TH><TD id=td_regiment>Royal Navy</TD></TR><TR id=tr_unittext><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Unit Text:</TH><TD id=td_unittext>H.M. Submarine P.38.</TD></TR><!-- <tr> <td vAlign="top" align="left" width="30%">Force:</td> <td id="td_force"></td> </tr>--><TR id=tr_death><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Date of Death:</TH><TD id=td_death>25/02/1942</TD></TR><TR id=tr_awards><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Awards:</TH><TD id=td_awards>DSC</TD></TR><TR id=tr_type><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Casualty Type:</TH><TD id=td_type>Commonwealth War Dead</TD></TR><TR id=tr_grave><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Grave/Memorial Reference:</TH><TD id=td_grave>Panel 62. Column 1.</TD></TR><TR id=tr_cemetery><TH vAlign=top align=right width="30%">Memorial:</TH><TD id=td_cemetery>PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
     
    Owen, Feb 15, 2007
    #11
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just found this, history of Ariosto.
    Hungarian Shipregister

    <TABLE class=slista width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width=898>s/s BÁRÓ FEJÉRVÁRY




    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#003399><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2 height=1></TD></TR><TR><TD width="21%">Ship classification:




    </TD><TD width="79%">ARAD class, single screw sea-going steam freighter</TD></TR><TR><TD>Built / Shipyard: </TD><TD>1902, Wigham Richardson & Co. Ltd., Newcastle, GBR, #390</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=slista cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="50%">Techical details:</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=slista cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="40%"></TD><TD width="60%">1902</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD>Length overall: (m)</TD><TD>111,52</TD></TR><TR><TD>Extrem breadth: (m)</TD><TD>13,83</TD></TR><TR><TD>Depth: (m)</TD><TD>6,77</TD></TR><TR><TD>DWT:</TD><TD>5900</TD></TR><TR><TD>GRT:</TD><TD>3925</TD></TR><TR><TD>Main engine type: </TD><TD>triplex gőzgép</TD></TR><TR><TD>Power: (HP or kW) </TD><TD>1500</TD></TR><TR><TD>Velocity: (kn or km/h) </TD><TD>11 cs.</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=slista cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5><TBODY><TR><TD>History: </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>1902-BÁRÓ FEJÉRVÁRY, Adria Royal Hungarian Sea. Nav. Co. Ltd., Fiume, AT-HU
    05.08.1914: seized at Nikolayev.
    1914-BULGANAK, Imperial Russian Navy - transport - N8
    1918-captured by German forces occupying Novorossiysk, returned to owners.
    1918-sailed for Italy under Italian flag
    1920-BÁRÓ FEJÉRVÁRY, Adria Soc. Di Nav. Marittima, Fiume, IT
    1922-ARIOSTO, s/o, IT
    1937-ARIOSTO, "Tirrenia" Soc. Anon. Di Nav., Fiume, IT

    14.02.1942: enroute from Tripoli to Palermo torpedoed by HMS P-38 about 12 miles from Cape Africa, Tunisia and sank the following day.


    This is an Arad class ship, Hungarian Shipregister



    http://www.papernet.hu/thumb.php?file=./img/kozos/Arad.jpg&size=400


    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
     
    Owen, Feb 15, 2007
    #12
  13. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    The P38 never finished the Patrol.The Ariosto was attacked the previous night by torpedo Aircraft from Malta.It was claimed they left the ship stopped in the water wreathed in smoke.
    Ultra tells us that Premuda(dubrovnik)and Polluce picked up 231 survivors.
    The other ship in the Convoy Atlas escaped the attack and delivered her 150 P.O.W. to Palermo.
     
    ADM199, Feb 15, 2007
    #13
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Do we have a list of the Alleid POWs who perished in this sinking?
     
    Owen, Feb 15, 2007
    #14
  15. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hi Owen,
    I created lists for this ship and five others some years ago using C.W.G.C. Records. The only problem is that in the North African Campaign there were Many Troops from non Commonwealth Countries. The figures for losses in "Reference" works are 138,but at the last count I had 140 or so.
    The Ariosto stayed afloat for an hour or so after being torpedoed.She eventually broke into two sections with the Stern section staying afloat for some time after the Bows.
    Today in the company of a survivor I placed a Poppy Cross at the Memorial to those lost at sea as P.O.W.
     
    ADM199, Feb 15, 2007
    #15
  16. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    SS SCILLIN (November 14, 1942)

    Hi, Just came across this post my interest is the DLI and searching through some stuff recently and came across the list of 46 Durham Light Infantrymen who died as a result of this action.One name appears to have two dates of death on different lists .NINO BIXIO is another ship where DLI men lost their lives(seven I believe) I have this list also if anyone would like it Posting?


    Name and Rank
    Reg Number
    Age
    Battalion
    Home
    L/Cpl Frank Brook
    4464452
    30
    1st DLI
    N/K
    Pte Edward Burton
    4459083
    23
    1st DLI
    N/K
    Pte George Adams
    4462357
    29
    6th DLI
    Gateshead
    Pte Joseph Appleyard
    4538224
    27
    6th DLI
    Leeds
    Pte Alfred Barnfield
    4468137
    35
    6th DLI
    Hartlepool
    Pte William Buckle
    4465789
    31
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Andrew Carrol
    7889745
    25
    6th DLI
    Washington
    Pte William Colwell
    4462616
    28
    6th DLI
    Leadgate,
    Pte Josiah Dawson
    4462409
    29
    6th DLI
    South Shields
    Cpl Alfred Hewson
    4460598
    26
    6th DLI
    Gateshead
    Pte James Higgins
    4464320
    22
    6th DLI
    Gateshead
    Pte Thomas W Jackson
    4453565
    22
    6th DLI
    Hull.
    Sgt Norman Kay
    4454663
    25
    6th DLI
    Etherley
    Pte Robert Leng
    4462478
    28
    6th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte Thomas H Longstaff
    4458208
    23
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Andrew Lowe
    4460428
    25
    6th DLI
    Manchester
    Pte Wilfred McDonald
    4462502
    27
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Sgt Thomas E Morris
    4449656
    28
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Thomas W Morris
    4464345
    29
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte George Palfreyman
    4615463
    22
    6th DLI
    Pontefract
    Pte Norman Pedelty
    4455750
    22
    6th DLI
    Roddymoore
    Pte Edward Reilly
    2987710
    27
    6th DLI
    Glasgow
    Pte Charles W Selley
    4460690
    22
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Peter Soutar
    2987722
    27
    6th DLI
    Glasgow
    L/Cpl Thomas A Waller
    4462608
    26
    6th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte Norman Burn
    4457384
    24
    8th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte William Cavanagh
    4455679
    22
    8th DLI
    Birtley
    Pte William H Downey
    4457402
    23
    8th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte Joseph Edwards
    4458863
    25
    8th DLI
    N/K
    Pte James Everson
    4468062
    33
    8th DLI
    N/K
    Pte John Frost
    4457412
    24
    8th DLI
    Sunderland
    Cpl John N Hall
    4455659
    21
    8th DLI
    Darlington
    Pte Thomas McAdam
    3191189
    24
    2nd DLI
    N/K
    L.Cpl Eric Stanley Miller
    4464806
    29
    8th DLI
    Yeadon
    Pte Robert N Punchion
    4461393
    26
    8th DLI
    South Shields
    Pte Joseph Richmond
    2987711
    27
    8th DLI
    Glasgow
    Pte Robert Riddall
    2987614
    28
    8th DLI
    New Cumnock
    Pte Mathew Stephenson
    4461420
    27
    8th DLI
    New Hartley
    Pte Ralph Younger
    4461456
    27
    8th DLI
    Gateshead
    Cpl James Flamson
    748809
    40
    9th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Fred W Jones
    4462170
    29
    9th DLI
    Wallasey
    Pte William A Morgan
    4468417
    21
    9th DLI
    Ushaw Moor
    Pte William Nicholson
    4452981
    21
    9th DLI
    Gateshead,
    Pte John Rhodes *
    5050818

    9th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Robert Rice
    4458329
    33
    9th DLI
    West Hartlepool
    Pte Evan T Rourke
    4457473
    23
    9th DLI
    N/k


    * CWGC lists death on 2/11/42
    Regards
    Verrieres
     
    Verrieres, Oct 24, 2008
    #16
  17. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    SS SCILLIN (November 14, 1942)

    Hi, Just came across this post my interest is the DLI and searching through some stuff recently and came across the list of 46 Durham Light Infantrymen who died as a result of this action.One name appears to have two dates of death on different lists .NINO BIXIO is another ship where DLI men lost their lives(seven I believe) I have this list also if anyone would like it Posting?


    Name and Rank
    Reg Number
    Age
    Battalion
    Home
    L/Cpl Frank Brook
    4464452
    30
    1st DLI
    N/K
    Pte Edward Burton
    4459083
    23
    1st DLI
    N/K
    Pte George Adams
    4462357
    29
    6th DLI
    Gateshead
    Pte Joseph Appleyard
    4538224
    27
    6th DLI
    Leeds
    Pte Alfred Barnfield
    4468137
    35
    6th DLI
    Hartlepool
    Pte William Buckle
    4465789
    31
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Andrew Carrol
    7889745
    25
    6th DLI
    Washington
    Pte William Colwell
    4462616
    28
    6th DLI
    Leadgate,
    Pte Josiah Dawson
    4462409
    29
    6th DLI
    South Shields
    Cpl Alfred Hewson
    4460598
    26
    6th DLI
    Gateshead
    Pte James Higgins
    4464320
    22
    6th DLI
    Gateshead
    Pte Thomas W Jackson
    4453565
    22
    6th DLI
    Hull.
    Sgt Norman Kay
    4454663
    25
    6th DLI
    Etherley
    Pte Robert Leng
    4462478
    28
    6th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte Thomas H Longstaff
    4458208
    23
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Andrew Lowe
    4460428
    25
    6th DLI
    Manchester
    Pte Wilfred McDonald
    4462502
    27
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Sgt Thomas E Morris
    4449656
    28
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Thomas W Morris
    4464345
    29
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte George Palfreyman
    4615463
    22
    6th DLI
    Pontefract
    Pte Norman Pedelty
    4455750
    22
    6th DLI
    Roddymoore
    Pte Edward Reilly
    2987710
    27
    6th DLI
    Glasgow
    Pte Charles W Selley
    4460690
    22
    6th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Peter Soutar
    2987722
    27
    6th DLI
    Glasgow
    L/Cpl Thomas A Waller
    4462608
    26
    6th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte Norman Burn
    4457384
    24
    8th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte William Cavanagh
    4455679
    22
    8th DLI
    Birtley
    Pte William H Downey
    4457402
    23
    8th DLI
    Sunderland
    Pte Joseph Edwards
    4458863
    25
    8th DLI
    N/K
    Pte James Everson
    4468062
    33
    8th DLI
    N/K
    Pte John Frost
    4457412
    24
    8th DLI
    Sunderland
    Cpl John N Hall
    4455659
    21
    8th DLI
    Darlington
    Pte Thomas McAdam
    3191189
    24
    2nd DLI
    N/K
    L.Cpl Eric Stanley Miller
    4464806
    29
    8th DLI
    Yeadon
    Pte Robert N Punchion
    4461393
    26
    8th DLI
    South Shields
    Pte Joseph Richmond
    2987711
    27
    8th DLI
    Glasgow
    Pte Robert Riddall
    2987614
    28
    8th DLI
    New Cumnock
    Pte Mathew Stephenson
    4461420
    27
    8th DLI
    New Hartley
    Pte Ralph Younger
    4461456
    27
    8th DLI
    Gateshead
    Cpl James Flamson
    748809
    40
    9th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Fred W Jones
    4462170
    29
    9th DLI
    Wallasey
    Pte William A Morgan
    4468417
    21
    9th DLI
    Ushaw Moor
    Pte William Nicholson
    4452981
    21
    9th DLI
    Gateshead,
    Pte John Rhodes *
    5050818

    9th DLI
    N/K
    Pte Robert Rice
    4458329
    33
    9th DLI
    West Hartlepool
    Pte Evan T Rourke
    4457473
    23
    9th DLI
    N/k


    * CWGC lists death on 2/11/42
    Regards
    Verrieres


    I gave the information to the D.L.I. Regimental Museum and Association Several years ago.

    Pre 1996 over 500 of the Scillin Casualties were said to have died between two dates. The first was in October but the date varied between 26th and 28th. The second is always 14th of November 1942.The date the Scillin was sunk.
    I brought the sinking to the attention of C.W.G.C. in 1995 which triggered enquiries and alterations to the Records.

    The other Casualties said to have died between two dates are those from the Ariosto.(15/2/42). The first date varies but indicates date reported as missing in Action. The second is always the 20th May 1942. This is the date when all those captured Jan-Feb and were registered with the Red X. if they survived the Voyage from Tripoli to Italy.
    So those said to have died between two such dates died on the Ariosto.

    Then there were those who had been Last seen boarding the ship by others who were lucky enough to have been on the S.S.Atlas, which sailed at the same time.
    These are given the D.O.D. as 13th, which is not unusual as some casualties are given D.O.D. when last reported to have been seen alive.

    I did put a post on the Durham County Web Site regarding the D.L.I. Casualties on the Scillin and Nino Bixio.

    My Research on the Subject is in the Regimental Archives of those lost. The Imperial War Museum also have my work on the Scillin Casualties and that done on members of the 11th R.H.A. is in the Archives of The Honourable Artillery Company.

    Over 100 of my Articles have been Published over the past 16yrs,but the most comprehensive was in the Royal Artillery Journal of September 2006.

    My work on the subject is readily available both at the places mentioned and on the Internet.

    Pte John Rhodes did not die on the Scillin as he is buried at El Alamein.

    Brian
     
    ADM199, Oct 24, 2008
    #17
    Mr Jinks likes this.
  18. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi,Brian,
    The list I believe was taken from the book `For you Tommy theWar is Over` by the late Major Ian English MC TD and Harry Moses they add at the bottom of the list Information collated from two sources Brian W Sims and the DLI Museum .On the list is included Pte John Rhodes.I believe the regimental archives are now kept at County Hall in Durham or am I thinking of something else? Is the list apart from Pte Rhodes acurate or are there more DLI to be considered.
    Regards
    Verrieres.
     
    Verrieres, Oct 24, 2008
    #18
  19. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hi,Brian,
    The list I believe was taken from the book `For you Tommy theWar is Over` by the late Major Ian English MC TD and Harry Moses they add at the bottom of the list Information collated from two sources Brian W Sims and the DLI Museum .On the list is included Pte John Rhodes.I believe the regimental archives are now kept at County Hall in Durham or am I thinking of something else? Is the list apart from Pte Rhodes acurate or are there more DLI to be considered.
    Regards
    Verrieres.


    As stated I did supply the Regimental Museum with the Information, Ian English came into the picture much later when he asked if it was O.K. to use my research in the Publication.
    At present I am in the middle of moving Home and my records are boxed up.
    Some information regarding men from the D.L.I. who escaped as P.O.W. was given to the Regimental Association a couple of years ago.

    There were 195 men listed amongst those who should have boarded the Scillin,who did in fact sail on another ship the following morning. Without my Records I can't give you any names. In a couple of weeks when we have completed our move I will look again at the Regiments losses.

    In 1996 the M.O.D. put a list of 2,002 men who should have boarded the ship into T.N.A. and came up with figures for Casualties. This was several names short of the true figure. This they lated admitted.

    My lists were created by borrowing the C.W.G.C. Registers for El Alamein Memorial and extracting the names of those with the Relevent D.O.D.
    This was done for six of the sinkings and took several months of combing through the 11,900 or so names.

    Some casualties from the Jason and Nino Bixio are buried in Athens as both ships were beached. The Jason at Point Methone, and the Nino Bixio was towed by the Destroyer Saetta to a Greek Port and beached. The wounded were treated and the dead were buried.

    There are casualties from the Ariosto and Scillin buried in Tunisia, but only a few are named.
    The rest are in Graves marked known unto God. Their remains were washed ashore sometimes several weeks after the sinkings.

    Most of my information comes from travelling to Kew and searching original Official Records over several years.
    Six of the 27 Scillin survivors were interviewed along with several from all the other ships except the Loreto.

    Sadly there are no survivors from the Scillin still with us and only one that I know of from the Ariosto.There are two Nino Bixio survivors alive in New Zealand, 1 in Australia and perhaps still 3 or 4 from the Jason.
    Bob Rogers is a survivor from the D.L.I. and is living in Palmerston North, New Zealand. Bob wrote a book called "Sixty Bonus Years." which gives an account of his survival and escape from Italy into Switzerland. My copy was lent to the Association for several months,so perhaps they made a copy.


    Brian
     
    ADM199, Oct 25, 2008
    #19
  20. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    An intresting Military Medal is about to come on to the market awarded to
    No. 7886393 Corporal Lionel Frank Edmonds,
    Royal Tank Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps LG 26 November 1940
    . Part of his citation reads He was in charge of a light tank attatched to B Squadron 7th Hussars having been left behind when his unit withdrew his tank was hit and left stranded amongst the barbed wire.He dismounted and cut the tank free whilst illuminated by enemy searchlights....Cpl Edmonds was later captured but was unfortunate to have been aboard the Jason when it was torpedoed by HMS Porpoise on 9th December 1941....The item is being Auctioned by the Newcastle based firm of Corbitts on Saturday 16th May at 1100hrs at The Swallow Hotel in Gateshead anyone fancying a bid it has a starting price of £1700.

    Verrieres
     
    Verrieres, Apr 26, 2009
    #20
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