British Pow Losses On Italian Ship

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Ralph B, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. Ralph B

    Ralph B Junior Member

    Hi all,

    This is a bit of a long shot but worth a go! Last year I met and interviewed a veteran from the 1st Bn, Welch Regt who fought in Crete and then North Africa. He was captured in North Africa and taken on an Italian ship with many other POWs from Tripoli heading to Sicily.

    He is unsure of the date but thinks it was in January or February 1942. He and many of the other POWs were put in the forward hold. The ship he was on left Tripoli at 2.30 – 3.00pm and he says that they had only been sailing for a few hours when they were torpedoed at about 6.00pm (by the Royal Navy) and the ship sunk. The torpedo struck the forward hold where the POWs were packed and killed many. He managed to escape and spent four hours in the water until picked up by an Italian destroyer. He told me that this destroyer picked up 18 POWs and went back to Tripoli. As far as he is aware, his group of POW survivors was the only one that went back to Tripoli – all the other men picked up were taken on to Sicily. He was in Tripoli for a week and was then loaded on to another ship and, thankfully, had a safe passage to Sicily.

    He knows that a lot of his mates went down with this Italian ship and would like to know what ship she was. He has asked me to see if I can find out for him. He has been told before that the ship was 4,170 ton ‘Ariosto’ which was torpedoed by the British submarine P38, commanded by Lt. R.J. Hemingway DSC RN, and sunk on 15 February 1942. I have had a Google search and found that 138 Allied POWs were lost on the ‘Ariosto’. Incidentally, the P38 was sunk herself the Italian destroyer Circe on 23rd February 1942. It would appear to me that the ship he was on WAS the ‘Ariosto’ but I was wondering if there are any Italian Navy/POW/Mediterranean experts out there who might have a better idea of the losses of British POWs on Italian ships in 1942?

    I know it’s a long shot but it’s worth a go. I have asked a naval historian I know and he is unable to help. I will also be asking the Naval Historical Branch but don’t hold out much hope.

    Any info or recommendations for further reading/research would be gratefully received. It would be nice to have a definitive answer for this 86-year old man as it is something he has always wondered about for the last 63 years.

    I have posted this in ‘The War in North Africa and the Mediterranean’ and ‘War at Sea’ as I am unsure which forum it should be in. Hope that’s okay.

    Many thanks
     
  2. It was the Tembien, of the 11,000 names on the Alamein Memorial more than half died in this way. The list is endless.

    Tembian, Feb 42 390 lost
    Scillin Oct 42 800 lost
    Nino Bixio Aug 42 400 lost
    Sebastiano Venier Dec 41 300 lost
    Loreto Oct 42
    Ariosta May 42
    Thermopylae Jan 42


    All carrying PoWs and All sunk by British subs.

    Cheers

    MF
     
  3. racerman21

    racerman21 Junior Member

    Just found this site; My dad was on a hell ship from North Africa in Aug 42 to Italy; captured after a tank battle, he was Tank Driver 46RTR; the ship with them was sunk by Royal Navy sub. Anyone know the name of the ship that didnt sink? Dad ended up on Campo PG70, then Stalag IVB in germany.
    Michael Green, Livermore, CA
     
  4. racerman21

    racerman21 Junior Member

    Just reading further... Dad was not in Sicily, but ended up near Fermo, Italy.
    Since he was captured July 22, 1942 (and wounded)... maybe he was on a later ship??? Sept? Oct? any ideas?
     
  5. englandphil

    englandphil Very Senior Member

    Racerman, welcome to the forum, and I am sure that one of the resident POW / Naval boffins will be able to help
    p
     
  6. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hi Racerman,
    Welcome to the Forum,
    of the eight ships that were successfully attacked by the R.N. while carrying P.O.W. there were two that didn't sink.

    The first was the Sebastiano Venier(Jason) which was eventually beached at Point Methoni,Greece.

    The second which you probably are refering to was the Nino Bixio. After the ship was torpedoed she was taken in tow by the Italian Destroyer Saetta and was eventually beached in Greece. The dead were later buried in Athens. Those who were missing are Remembered on the Memorial at El Alamein.

    I do have casualty lists for these ships that contain the names of only members of Commonwealth Forces.
    There were also 350 French P.O.W. aboard the Nino Bixio, but I can only name seven casualties who were members of the S.A.S., no others.

    The best reading on the Nino Bixio is in "No Honour No Glory" by Spence Edge a Jim Henderson.

    Brian
     
  7. racerman21

    racerman21 Junior Member

    Thanks Brian, My dad was captured July 22, 42, was wounded, so stayed in Africa for a few weeks, Jerry Doc took care of him. Boarded a hell ship -one of two- I would guess Aug or Sept, ended up in Campo PG70 near Fermo, Italy. SO my question is, What ship was he on? the one with them went down (so I remember hearing as a kid). I've searched internet for "shipping Losses" in Med of that time zone and did find Nino Bixio, but no others. Any idea? Here's pic of dad's mate Stacy in south of England during Battle of Brit; see tank in background.
    Michael Green
    http:///www.offroadexperience.com/wcb/motorcycles.htm
     
  8. racerman21

    racerman21 Junior Member

    Looked Amazon for that book, gather it's out of print. MG
     
  9. racerman21

    racerman21 Junior Member

    any more info on the Scillin? (Oct 42, 800 lost).
     
    Roxy likes this.
  10. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Senior Member

    Found this in an Italian book on the hell ships:
    Scillin was sunk on Nov 14 1942 18 Km north of Milazzo by the sumarine Sahib that believed he was attacking a troop transport. Sahib picked up 27 POW (one from SA), and 35 crew members. 787 people, mostly POW lost their lives in the wreck.


    U-Boat.net quotes
    At 19.47 hours HMS Sahib (Lt. J.H. Bromage, DSC, RN) torpedoes and sinks the Italian transport Scillin (1903, 1579 GRT) about 10 nautical miles north of Cape Milazzo. The Scillin was tranporting Allied prisoners of war, of which many drowned.
     
  11. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Found this in an Italian book on the hell ships:
    Scillin was sunk on Nov 14 1942 18 Km north of Milazzo by the sumarine Sahib that believed he was attacking a troop transport. Sahib picked up 27 POW (one from SA), and 35 crew members. 787 people, mostly POW lost their lives in the wreck.


    U-Boat.net quotes
    At 19.47 hours HMS Sahib (Lt. J.H. Bromage, DSC, RN) torpedoes and sinks the Italian transport Scillin (1903, 1579 GRT) about 10 nautical miles north of Cape Milazzo. The Scillin was tranporting Allied prisoners of war, of which many drowned.

    The Scillin is mentioned quite a lot on the web.I started researching the sinking in 1992 when I discovered my Father died on the ship.

    The Scillin was at 35.14N - 11.18E when sited at 19.29hrs. The Submarine moved up Moon and brought the ship to with 12 rounds from the Deck Gun.She was in a sinking state when the Sahib fired the Torpedo into her Engineroom. She sank in less than 2 minutes breaking her back as she took on more water.
    There were 27 Allied survivors;1 Officer and 26 O.Rs. 36 Italians were also picked up.
    It is said in some areas that she was also carrying 200 Italian Soldiers.This is not so as she was carrying 30 Guards and a Naval gun crew for the 120mm and L.A.A. Guns.

    787 Allied P.O.W. died on the ship,which is the highest number of P.O.W. Casualties on the six Italian ships sunk in the Mediterranean Dec 1941 - Nov 1942 .

    In all cases Ultra told of the ships Cargo,Speed,timing at various positions on the course and Destination.

    I have the signals.
     
  12. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Brian, My dad was captured July 22, 42, was wounded, so stayed in Africa for a few weeks, Jerry Doc took care of him. Boarded a hell ship -one of two- I would guess Aug or Sept, ended up in Campo PG70 near Fermo, Italy. SO my question is, What ship was he on? the one with them went down (so I remember hearing as a kid). I've searched internet for "shipping Losses" in Med of that time zone and did find Nino Bixio, but no others. Any idea? Here's pic of dad's mate Stacy in south of England during Battle of Brit; see tank in background.
    Michael Green
    http:///www.offroadexperience.com/wcb/motorcycles.htm


    Looked through all references I have and the only conclusion I can come to is that your dad was on Sestriere. The ship was accompanying Nino Bixio when she was torpedoed.

    Brian
     
  13. racerman21

    racerman21 Junior Member

    SO Gents, After some replies from Brian (thanks!) and others, my question is.... What ship would me dad been on? Left Ruestat Ridge (? spelling) Africa (Eygpt?) for Italy aboard Ital ship which we suppose docked at/near Fermo, Italy. he was captured July 22, 1942... suppose ship ride Aug 42
     
  14. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    SO Gents, After some replies from Brian (thanks!) and others, my question is.... What ship would me dad been on? Left Ruestat Ridge (? spelling) Africa (Eygpt?) for Italy aboard Ital ship which we suppose docked at/near Fermo, Italy. he was captured July 22, 1942... suppose ship ride Aug 42

    Ruweisat Ridge(Ruin Ridge)was where he would have been captured as many of those shipped out from Benghazi early August were caught up there.
    The Camp at the Oasis of Koefia(North of Benghazi) according to the Commandant; Captain Palermo; was accepting P.O.W. about the first week in June.

    The only ship that fits the bill is SESTRIERE which sailed at the same time as NINO BIXIO which was torpedoed 15 miles South West of Cape Sapienza at 03:30hrs on the 17/8/42. She is still afloat at 16:00hrs with a slight list and was being assisted by Saetta an escorting Destroyer. She was eventually reported to have been beached at Navarino.
    Sestriere had continued her voyage.

    There was no other ship successfully attacked that was carrying P.O.W. about that time.The next loss was LORETO 13/10/42.


    The course forecast was :-leave Benghazi 07.00 16/8/42 escorted by Da Recco,Saetta,Polluce and Calliope. Speed 17knts.
    Routeing. "Carabinier; Imeriza 2000/16th; Gomma 0100/17th; DISTANZA 1330/17th; Niente 2245/17th;Then Coastal routes ; E.T.A. 0300/18th".


    Brian
     
  15. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    In all cases Ultra told of the ships Cargo,Speed,timing at various positions on the course and Destination.

    I have the signals.

    Brian

    We have been in contact before. I hope you are well.

    What's the earliest you have for ULTRA information on Sebastiano Venier's load? I make it Naval Headlines 159, issued 1100 G.M.T. 8 December 1941. The copy I took is from the document sent to Churchill (the marks in red were made by him).

    Santoni apparently thinks it was 10 December that the POW were mentioned for the first time, but that is clearly wrong.

    I would be interested in your take, since in my view the question of whether HMS Porpoise could have known what she was attacking hinges to some extent on the timing of the information.

    All the best

    Andreas
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Racerman21 -
    as you so rightly say - your dad was captured during the second battle of Ruweisat Ridge which started on 22nd July ' 42 when the 23rd Armoured bde took a terrible beating in that battle losing 93 out of 104 Tanks left after the GAZALA Gallop in which we also lost Tobruk - in the general first Battle of El Alamein - so from bad things comes the good as Auchinlek was fired - Monty took over - won the Battle of Alam Halfa - then 2nd Alamein and never lost another until the bit of a hiccup at Ahrnem...
    Cheers
     
  17. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Hi Andreas,
    the earliest I have at a glance is for the afternoon of the 5th of December.
    Quote
    Rome to SALONICA
    From Admiralty Rome

    19577 REFERENCE YOUR 7383 OF TODAY
    EXPECTED SAILING OF M.V. "VENIERO" AT 1800/7 FOR POINT TESTA PASSING 30 MILES WEST OF POINT CARENA

    (Dept Note "VENIERO"LAST MENTIONED IN ZTPI/2754 OF 1/12 AS HAVING ARRIVED BENGHAZI)

    1814/5/12/41 +++LWF/DE

    A Dept.Note at the bottom of ZTPI 3034 of 9/12/41 states:- ZTPI/3026 Reported that "Veniero"had been sighted. It was known that 2000 Prisoners were onboard. SEE ZTPI/3031.


    At present I can't get access to the rest of my Records on the Sebastiano Venier but will post the relevent detail as soon as possible.

    Rohwer like others relies heavily on Daily summaries which ar selective and do not give the whole picture. The most glaring mistake in "Allied Submarine Attacks of WW22 was the entry for the Tembien where he states "Tembien had 498 P.O.W. aboard,of whom 78 died". If he had looked a little further he would have realise the signal had been ammended to "78 Survived". Ultra does give the exact figures for all Nationalities in this case.
     
    englandphil likes this.
  18. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Thanks for that Brian.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  19. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Double post
     
  20. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    It was the Tembien, of the 11,000 names on the Alamein Memorial more than half died in this way. The list is endless.

    Tembian, Feb 42 390 lost
    Scillin Oct 42 800 lost
    Nino Bixio Aug 42 400 lost
    Sebastiano Venier Dec 41 300 lost
    Loreto Oct 42
    Ariosta May 42
    Thermopylae Jan 42


    All carrying PoWs and All sunk by British subs.

    Cheers

    MF

    Thermopylae was working for the British and sunk by Junkers 88.

    M/S Thermopylae voyages - Norwegian Merchant Fleet 1939-1945

    I also doubt that over 5,500 British POW died in this way?

    All the best

    Andreas
     

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