British Snow Suits

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Tom OBrien, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    For all those uniform specialists out there, I thought this note from the war diary of 46 Transport Column (WO171/2252) might be of interest:

    "31 December 1944
    1100 C,RASC visited SECOND ARMY (REAR) conference DDST and DADST(T) ref re-org.
    ST Detail 454 – 6 x 5-tonners of 287 Coy RASC (Armd Div Tpt) reported to 15 A.O.D. (2 sub. Section) at MALINES earliest 31 Dec ’44 to collect 8000 suits Snow Warfare (contract No. 000377) – under release authy 15 AOD TPM P.C. 17 of 241600A – for delivery to 1 Ord Maint Coy at MOLL."

    It would be interesting to see who they were subsequently isssued to.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Tom O

    Probably meant for the fictional Mountain troops fighting in Italy in their leather jackets - issued one per three men- or the Mountain troops of 21 AGroup fighting as Infantry in sub sea level
    Holland…..

    Logistics gone mad

    Cheers
     
  3. Combover

    Combover Guest

    Mr Canning is correct in that many were issued to the 52 Lowland Division. I know some were on issue to the 51st Highland Division and the 49th (West Riding) Division.

    Their use seemed mainly to be for active patrolling rather than general wear.
     
  4. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Hello Tom,

    From 3 Recce Regt’s War Diary “Report on the Patrol Crossing of the R MAAS near SAMBEEK on 27 Jan 45”.

    “8. Dress
    Battle dress, denim, snow suits, and Wellington boots were worn. This had been the dress for all trg and is found to be quite satisfactory. The hoods of snow suits restrict hearing and were NOT used. Headgear comprised cap comforters bound with white linen. White flour was rubbed over faces and gloves and sprinkled in the hair. Where possible weapons and magazines were bound with bandage-like strips of white linen.”

    Elsewhere in the report it mentions that a recce prior to the patrol was not possible due to snow. That winter was a particularly severe one.

    Regards,

    Richard
     
    Chris C likes this.
  5. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Tom,

    Some units of the 6th Airborne were given snow suits while in the Ardennes. I'm not sure if they were part of the same issue you indicate. There are a few official photos showing their use, the most well known being the the 6th Airborne sniper.

    Regards ...
     

    Attached Files:

  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205202992
    large.jpg

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205202995
    large.jpg


    1940, but showing camouflaged rifle
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204864
    large.jpg
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Just as I thought - not too many in "Sunny" Italy

    Cheers
     
  8. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Diane,

    The 1940 image is fascinating - was the snow cam suit an issued piece of kit or improvised?
     
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Sorry Mike, I don't know, but the ones the 1940 A/T crew below have an improvised look - sheets?

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204865
    large.jpg

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204854
    large-2.jpg


    To round off the images which IWM have to offer:
    WW1
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205213666
    large-1.jpg

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30094611
    large-3.jpg
     
  10. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Tom,

    A story by Fred Bailey, King’s Royal Rifle Corps, in which the use of snow suits is mentioned while in Northern Italy.

    The Fright of My Life - WW2 People's War - BBC

    Attached is a watercolour by John Staerck (IWM) of what is probably riflemen from the KRRC in snow suits.

    Regards ...
     

    Attached Files:

  11. reddevon

    reddevon Member

    it seams that the members of the East Yorks are using SMLE rifles and not No4's
     
  12. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Snow-suits were the exception rather than the rule, for British soldiers during the Ardennes 44/45. Most British soldiers had to do with their khaki camouflage, which made them stand out against the snowy background.


    447021.jpg
    The well-known pics of the 6th Airborne Division represent men of the Royal Ulster Rifles. The pictures were taken near Grune on 14 January 45, when the battle was already over for the 6th AB Div. I know from one of the veterans that they were given the snow-suits only for the photo- and film-shoot and had to hand them in immediately afterwards.
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Cee

    There may very well have been snow suits in Italy - BUT - inasmuch as we were surrounded by Infantry - I never saw even ONE snow suit - on anyone - that story appears to be a touch of

    imagination as the so called Brass knew the idiocy of sending a two man patrol out to find a hostile enemy group……the drawing of the two riflemen ( sic) could be anywhere as the attending

    text describes the 4th AB of 7th AD…..and they never saw snow in the desert - only in NWE..so quite the assumption...

    Cheers
     
  14. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    Not really surprising in 1940!

    Chris
     
  15. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Infantrymen of Le Régiment de la Chaudière, who are wearing British winter camouflage clothing, on patrol, Bergendal, Netherlands, 24 January 1945

    winter.jpg
     
  16. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    dbf likes this.
  17. Combover

    Combover Guest

    Excuse the bluntness of this but we must clarify 2 main points here:

    1. Snow suits were indeed usually only issued to those doing a patrol. Why would anyone else at that moment need them? They'd need to be laundered after a few patrols anyway otherwise they wouldn't be fully white anymore. So giving them out and taking them back isn't so stupid when you think about it. Let's not think of it as a penny pinching British Army, more pragmatic and considerate.

    2. At least the British Army were equipping their men with suitable clothing that was fit for purpose. The US army on the other hand, generally were not. Look at the famous photo and then ask why people always tell you that American kit was always better.


    My Grandfather told a similar tale of when they were in Holland in the Winter of 1944 and they were facing a house across a stream in which the SS had been staging some resistance. It was the only house for some distance and so was an obvious vantage point. He told me his officer and two NCOs went out on a patrol and donned the snow suits, specifically for the purpose. They went to try and convince the SS to surrender but needed to get close enough, without be blown to pieces before hand, to negotiate with them.
    He never mentioned the snow suits at any other time and remembered this vividly, so we can infer that it was the only time he ever saw them.

    The SS, by the way, resisted further so someone called for the RAF Town Planning Service...who then rearranged the landscape with the aid of some bomb-carrying Spitfires.
     
    Jen'sHusband and Cee like this.
  18. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    That fits with the photo of the Chaudieres. It is the Scout Platoon which is pictured and they presumably would be doing the most patrolling.
     
  19. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Some good points made on the issuing of snow suits for patrol purposes. The photo of the 6th Airborne sniper was taken by Bert Hardy 5 AFPU and I suspect he was also the photographer of the others in that January 14 series. Someone sold what looks like a 1945 magazine page of the photos on eBay. Hardy also did a bit of freelancing on the side selling his photo stories to magazines like the Picture Post during the war.

    There are more photos from this series and possibly others of the Airborne in snow suits on Battlefield Historian starting here and following on from page 9 that my be of interest.

    Battlefield Historian - Ardennes Search

    I'll also attach one that caught my eye. It doesn't look like it was taken by a professional or else it was a slip that didn't make the cut?

    Regards ...
     

    Attached Files:

  20. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Cee - Pictures of recce troops are either Airborne Recce (6th AB Div) or 61st Recce Regt, which was attached to 6th AB Div. for the Ardennes operation. They operated in the area between Rochefort and St-Hubert, on the junction between British 30 Corps and U.S. VIII Corps (Third U.S. Army).
     

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