British soldiers in Shanghai, c. 1927-1928

Dear all, especially Verrieres

I received today a packet of photos of China I'd ordered from ebay. It includes a few of British soldiers in Shanghai, c. 1927-1928, i.e. at the time the city's garrison was reinforced by what was called the Shanghai Defence Force (will add more details on this later, see also Verrieres earlier post) because of concerns arising from fighting nearby between various Chinese forces.

I do not know the unit here, although it might be the Bedfordshire Regiment, who were there at the time, I believe, see one of the captions for more speculation. I believe most of the shots of the guys were taken at Jessfield Road Barracks. Not many names, unfortunately, but all very "atmospheric"...

Captions/comments are drawn from some comments on back of the snapshots and my own knowledge. Click for bigger versions (hope I have done this right !).

Simply marked "self", so I assume this is the lad who took the photos.

Again, "self". Shooting cups ? This and the next one, and another, show the lads wearing a sports shirt marked XVI...I speculate, but might this be because they are Bedfordshire Regiment, formerly 16th Foot ???

View attachment 15198 Similar

Again, "self"

View attachment 15200 "Self keeping warm"...again, that winter kit similar to DLI in Verrieres previous thread, see http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/15820-1st-dli-pre-war-1931-39-a.html#post165548

Same again

One of the few with a name..."Herbert". Again, the XVI on his shirt.

Another name..."Jock"...at a wild guess, someone from north of the border !

View attachment 15204 NOT Shanghai, it says "a section of D Coy, Malta", but included for faces...and maybe hint that our photographer might have been D Company...the Beds were, I think, in Malta in 1926, there are a few pics of Malta in the package too

Not sure if this in Shanghai, but suspect it is given style of parasols...again posted for faces

View attachment 15206 Again, sadly no names

View attachment 15207 Love this one, labelled "Pte Wun Long, Regimental Mascot"...

Some Shanghai scenes, this is the famous Garden Bridge, at North End of the Bund, over Suzhou Creek to Hongkou District...often featured in pics of the 1932-1937 period as it was the boundary between the International Settlement and the Japanese controlled area...compare with the photo in Verrieres thread http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/15820-1st-dli-pre-war-1931-39-a.html#post165608...the building in far right corner was (and still is) the Russian Consulate

Labelled "view from roof of New World South"...looking west I think....New World was a Shanghai entertainment centre in the International Settlement, with a bit of a reputation say no more...

View attachment 15210 Labelled "Thibet Road", i.e. Tibet Road, still same name...I think I recognise the building, can't recall what it was in 1927
but it is still used by the, ah, local forces...

Welcome comments, I may add more info later...

The other 50 or so snapshots in the packet are mostly scenes of China, rural and urban, including some from beyond Shanghai,...quite interesting in themselves to a China buff, not of military interest as such but happy to post the better ones if folks are interested.

 

Ah ha there's the Beds...could be them, it seems..although it is pure speculation based on the XVI !

 

Any pics on the RN´s Yangtze gunboats?

 

Funny you should ask ...I have an interest in this topic...although focused on pre-WW1 as I have some letters from a gunboat skipper from 1911 that I might try and write up and publish sometime...

I asked about HMS Widgeon (the vessel in question) a few days ago and several kind souls posted replies here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-sea/16640-warship-pictures-6.html#post165631

Best single place for gunboat stuff, with ton of pics, is H.M.S. Falcon - Royal Navy Gunboats in China and the Far East

 

Thanks for the link, mate. Interesting stuff.

 

If you got a posting to a place like Shanghai or Singapore pre-war was it seen as a good place to go or a backwater as a posting? Often wondered what soldiers thought of a posting to india as opposed to say Egypt or at home even. Great thread CH!

 

If you got a posting to a place like Shanghai or Singapore pre-war was it seen as a good place to go or a backwater as a posting? Often wondered what soldiers thought of a posting to india as opposed to say Egypt or at home even. Great thread CH!

I would say that with the aura of glamour, sofistication and mystery that turn of the century international settlements had, in far away places like Tangiers, Peking or Shanghai, being posted there would have been considered, if not a privilege, at least a shot at adventure. The 4th Marines website, chinamarines.com, does mention a posting in Shanghai as good stuff.

What do yo think, CH? You´re "Our Man in the Far East" (Sorry for the lack of originality, Smudger )

 

Ah well.. one needs a book to answer that one...and luckily...there is one...'Sin City', by Ralph Shaw, published c1973, ISBN of my 1986 edition is 0708830811..sadly none currently on Abebooks...semi-fictional/factual account of pre-WW2 Shanghai by British lad who went out in 1937 as a RASC soldier, and left a little later to join a newspaper in the city as a journalist (he had been such in UK)...

I quote from Chapter 2..."Shanghai was a cushy berth, dead easy compared to Aldershot and Bulford. For the first time in my life I had a manservant, or rather, I shared his services with others who lived with me in a barrack room at the British Military Hospital in downtown Shanghai, only a few hundred yards from the Bund waterfront...

"The 'room boy' took over the chores that we did ourselves back in Blighty - making the beds, 'bumping' the floor, polishing our buttons, cap badges, blancoing our belts, cleaning our boots and so on. So we lived like little tin gods..."

...and, if the book is to be believed, spent a fair amount of time, er, fraternising with the locals...

So, apart from the minor irritation that the Japanese were engaged in a certain amount of rather violent urban regeneration a few blocks north, it was a dawdle...

I must mention this one to Verrieres, lotsa mentions of 1 DLI...funny, he travelled out to Shanghai in the 'Dilwara' with the same batch of Durhams that he mentions here http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prewar/15820-1st-dli-pre-war-1931-39-a-2.html#post165888

 

Just found this piece of info on USN ops in China, both Asiatic Fleet and Yangtze Patrol:

Yangtze River Patrol and Other US Navy Asiatic Fleet Activities in China, 1920-1942

Looks interesting.

 

if you want some more I have pictures of my grandfather there in 1927 he was with the royal marines, I also have some postcard type pictures and I also was there in 2007 and took shots of what it looks like today against what it looked like then

 

Hello Waxfordski and welcome. Feel free to post away!

 

Hi, Waxfordski, thanks for this, would be great to see them - and well done on the "then and nows" ! That is often very doable in Shanghai.

 

just registered with WW2talk trying to trace family history.
The Beds and Herts guy in Shanghai 1927 on the left stood holding/polishing his shoes is my grandfather - Herbert Payne from Luton.
I possess the same photo in his war diaries.
Seeing service in India. Egypt. Malta then later captured whilst defending Singapore and enduring over 3 years on the Burma-Siam railway, any info gratefully recieved.

 

Hi Ivan,

Are these your grandfather's details from his POW days. He almost certainly will have an index card for that time, held at the National Archives.

Record Details

China, I like the way this thread is opening up for you. Generally, as you will know, a posting in this region was a great number to get as a service man or woman.

I was talking to a researcher into Hong Kong for the WW2 period and he says that even the lowest ranks in the British Army had servants and a high quality of life whilst out in the Far East. This, he said made their time as either POW's or civilian evacuees even harder to take and come to terms with.

Steve.

 

Hi Ivan...interesting I am afraid all I have are these photos, which I got because of my interest in the British Army etc in China.

I assume your grandfather was in the 5th Beds & Herts in Singapore ? If so, here are a couple of links about them :

5th Bn. Beds & Herts - Burma Railway - World War II Forums

COFEPOW - The Armed Forces - The 5th Battalion - Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment

COFEPOW (the second link) might be worth contacting, if you have not already, as they are experts on Far East POWs.

As Bamboo has just said - beat me to it by minutes ! - their database has what looks like your grandfather's details.

On the Hong Kong researcher's point about "a high quality of life", while that was true, to some extent, in peacetime garrisons, I am not sure it would apply to quite the same extent during the war. Even in peacetime, too, the climate, while sometimes pleasant, could at other times be downright unpleasant (having lived in both Shanghai and Hong Kong myself) - especially in summer months and if you had to do anything energetic, which sadly would have been quite often in the forces !!!

Cheers

Graham

 

Hi Ivan...interesting I am afraid all I have are these photos, which I got because of my interest in the British Army etc in China.

I assume your grandfather was in the 5th Beds & Herts in Singapore ? If so, here are a couple of links about them :

5th Bn. Beds & Herts - Burma Railway - World War II Forums

COFEPOW - The Armed Forces - The 5th Battalion - Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment

COFEPOW (the second link) might be worth contacting, if you have not already, as they are experts on Far East POWs.

As Bamboo has just said - beat me to it by minutes ! - their database has what looks like your grandfather's details.

On the Hong Kong researcher's point about "a high quality of life", while that was true, to some extent, in peacetime garrisons, I am not sure it would apply to quite the same extent during the war. Even in peacetime, too, the climate, while sometimes pleasant, could at other times be downright unpleasant (having lived in both Shanghai and Hong Kong myself) - especially in summer months and if you had to do anything energetic, which sadly would have been quite often in the forces !!!

Cheers

Graham
His diary mentions him as battman to the CO or someother Officer - he recalls them inspecting forward positions on bicycle racing through the streets - and being sniped at, so perhaps not such a dream job for him! I'll post more when I can dig out his diary - a hundred or more photos and a similar number of pages covering his enlistment (with his brothers aged 15) and service with 1st and 5th Bn B+H through Malta, India, Egypt etc... perhaps a good resource for somebody out there?!

Thanks everybody !

 

His diary mentions him as battman to the CO or someother Officer - he recalls them inspecting forward positions on bicycle racing through the streets - and being sniped at, so perhaps not such a dream job for him! I'll post more when I can dig out his diary - a hundred or more photos and a similar number of pages covering his enlistment (with his brothers aged 15) and service with 1st and 5th Bn B+H through Malta, India, Egypt etc... perhaps a good resource for somebody out there?!

Thanks everybody !

Interesting stuff, look forward to more ! I'd be especially interested in anything from China in 1927 when the 1st Beds and Herts were out as part of the Shanghai Defence Force (in Shanghai and Wei-hai-wei), but I am sure others will like to hear about the WW2 period, too.

 

In sorting out some v old family photographs I came across some photos of who I believe to be my maternal grandfather Joe potter. On the back of each photo is Shanghi 1928. Is it worth me posting the photos to see whether it gives any clues ?