Does anyone know exactly when the Royal Navy stopped the practice of putting a ship's name on cap tallies? I have a photo of my father with a 'HM Minesweepers' cap and would like to be able to rule out any ships before that date. Thanks
It is difficult to be exact because this AFO was issued in 1942. As you can read, above, only H.M.S. tallies were allowed to be worn ashore although named tallies could still be worn onboard. After 31 March 1943 only HMS tallies ashore and afloat for the duration of the war. Regards Hugh
My Dad once spoke of losing a cap with 'his Phoebe tally' on it. That came from his 1942 diary so it's highly likely that if he served on board Phoebe it would have been 1940 or 41. There are several references to other ships in that diary, notably HMSAS Southern Sea and HMS Queen Elizabeth. I know he probably had several loan drafts in the two years prior to 1942
Lord Haw Haw, (William Joice) caused a lot of mirth in Suffolk when he broadcast that HMS Ganges had been sunk, Ganges being the land based training establishment.
Just a little more Admiralty Fleet Order 4430 28/11/40 - Cap Ribbons "Economy in issue. Issue of cap ribbons lettered with ships names or with special lettering (eg H.M. Submarines, H.M. Patrol Service etc) will be temporarily suspended when stocks are used up. “H.M.S.” only ribbons to be supplied in future and to be used for all services. Issues reduced to one on first issue". WW2 Royal Navy cap tallies - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum refers. Regards Hugh
My partner's father enlisted in the Royal Naval Volunteer Wireless Reserve (RNVWR) in 1936 and, I gather. was issued a cap tally thus - but it doesn't survive (lord, I want one) . Whilst he was called up for Munich in 1938 and served on HMS Rodney, he seems never to have been issued their cap tally; he was aboard HMS Adventure when it was sunk by a magnetic mine. His cap survives, but no tallies, although we suspect from a blurry photo he wore HMS - not RNVR - from 1939
Hi All, My Father kept his 'HM Patrol Vessels' cap tally in the box with his war medals and memorabelia from Royal Navy Service in WW2. He was a volunteer. I have his original service record and also results of a Royal Navy search of 'Pay and Victuals' archives. They all show Dad served on Fleet Minesweepers ie HMS Fancy (Algerine Class). There is one mystery entry covering most of 1944 of 'HMS Lynx' that was Vice Admiral - Dover Command. No ships are listed against this entry but we know he saw bodies on the Normandy beaches around D-Day so was on a ship there. He was by then a Leading Radio Mechanic, trained on Radio and Radar. Coastal command at Dover was 'HMS Wasp'. Trying to understand if ratings on Fleet Minewsweepers wore this cap tally as the 15th MSF were based at Dover then, sailing from there for D-Day beach 'Sword'. Any thoughts gratefully received. Best regards, Steve
Steve, Some thoughts and input as follows. Confirm that the 15th Minesweeping Flotilla did serve in the D-Day invasion where it swept Channel 10 in Force S ie Sword Beach. Operation Neptune: the Minesweeping Operation June 5-6 1944 The flotilla, consisting of Bangor class minesweepers, left Dover on June 5 and must have taken up her station in 'the Spout' south of the Isle of Wight pretty smartly by the early hours of the 6th. Ahead of the flotilla was the midget submarine X-23 which had been in the waters off Sword for over 48 hours. Thus it looks like your father was transferred from HMS Fancy to one of these Bangor Class. To help ascertain what cap tallies might have been worn by the ratings - you might strike lucky by doing an image search of the flotilla ships and I give the Commanding Officers to help narrow down the time period to Operation Neptune. The eight ships of the flotilla were: HMS Fraserburgh (Leader/S.O.) C.O. Cdr H. Lewis RN HMS Lyme Regis C.O. Cdr J. Benson RNVR HMS Ardrossan C.O. Lt. Cdr G. Alderson-Smith RNVR HMS Bootle C.O. Lt. Cdr J. Gibbons HMS Llandudno C.O. Lt. Cdr F. Darnborough HMS Worthing C.O. Lt. Cdr C. Hamilton-Adams HMS Dunbar C.O. Lt. J.Borlace HMS Fort York C.O. Lt. E. de la Mere RNR Cheers Rattler
Hi Rattler, Thanks for taking time to reply. Your info confirms what I have found as well. I'm yet to discover what else the 15th MSF specifically did for the rest of 1944 after June but have found out that many MSF's were engaged post D-Day continuing to work in the English Channel for many months to keep the way clear for the continued supply of men, machinery and supplies for the ongoing European Invasion. Highly likely the 15th were engaged in that task too. Re: Cap Tallies...Thanks for the tip about looking for photos, will see what I can find. Long live the internet. Cheers, Steve
Steve, I chased up a bit further on the activities of the 15th MSF post Operation Neptune in June-July 1944. The flotilla was based at Harwich and it swept in the North Sea. Once Ostend had been liberated the 15th, along with the 6th and 7th MSFs swept waters off that port. The 15th's northern limit seems to be the River Humber where, probably with other flotillas, it swept a broad channel towards Germany in the 'western' part of the North Sea. These duties continued into 1946 when at some point the flotilla dispersed and ships literally laid off. By 1948 most were scrapped with the odd one converted for mercantile use. Rattler
Hi Rattler, Thanks for the update. That ties in perfectly with Dads service record. From 11-14 December 1944 he was at HMS Badger (Harwich MS base) and on 15 December onwards his record shows he'd joined the minesweeper HMS Fancy which was part of the 7th MSF at that time. According to his service record the 7th MSF must have been based out of HMS Boscawen (Portland) shortly afterwards in December and they were due to go to the far east (Columbo) in early 1945. On route to far east via Gibraltar, HMS Fancy left the 7th at Gibralta to sail and join the 19th MSF based in Malta where they swept the Mediterranean into 1946. Out of interest did you find that MSF info on the internet? Many thanks indeed. Best regards, Steve
Hi Steve, Regarding your last question - I find that there is not very much of value on MSFs on the internet. I have a decent collection of naval books and I dipped into some of those. Also, I have done some research at the Nat. Archives on some M/Sw activities - (but I rarely encountered the 15th MSF, hence I could not give you very much.) Minesweeping, especially pre- 1944, was regarded as somewhat a 'Cinderella' service -- officers were usually RNVR or RNR; but the flotilla activities were vital, and by the end of the war minesweeping was belatedly highly regarded and its value appreciated to a deserved high degree. Via the internet I could not find pictures of ratings with the "HM Patrol Vessels" cap tally. Best Rattler
Yes, MSFs sadly under rated by many but 'They led the way' on D-day, making Victory in Europe possible. I've found quite a bit here and there on the internet re MSFs and if various sources concur that makes it useful. Enough for my research anyway, in conjunction with dates on Dad's S459. He was RNVR. Thanks a million for your time and help, I've not looked for ratings pictures yet but will do soon. The PM realised the MSFs' worth with these words that I'm sure many on here have already seen ~ Now that Nazi Germany has been defeated I wish to send you all on behalf of His Majesty's Government a message of thanks and gratitude. The work you do is hard and dangerous. You rarely get and never seek publicity; your only concern is to do your job, and you have done it nobly. You have sailed in many seas and all weathers... This work could not be done without loss, and we mourn all who have died and over 250 ships lost on duty. No work has been more vital than yours; no work has been better done. The Ports were kept open and Britain breathed. The Nation is once again proud of you. Winston Spencer Churchill Best regards, Steve
Finally found a picture of a Minesweeper crew relaxing in March 1941. Cap tallys clearly show the words - HM Patrol Vessels. Best regards, Steve
Steve - well done on that find. By strange coincidence, and totally unconnected, I am currently researching my uncle who served in the RAF 1941- 53, being in Bomber Command during the war. Yesterday I happened to be on this website: William Barfoot, his wife and a sailor at Brandon · IBCC Digital Archive and there was this photo, by complete chance, with the cap tally for which you have been searching. And then you posted your find! Like buses, these things come in twos! Rattler
Hi Rattler, Nice photo. Bonus of my find is that it was taken onboard a Minesweeper, a big positive identification to prove where Dad wore his tally. All the best for your latest research. Best regards, Steve
