Cassino Defences

Discussion in 'Italy' started by Phaethon, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    As a group with an interest in history, its always nice for us to get a clear picture of the way things were... so I thought I'd attach a really interesting intelligence map I encountered within my research detailng everything the allies knew about the defences of Cassino and crucially, the abbey on monte Cassino, on 20th March 1944; two months before operation Diadem.

    This gives an excellent idea of how heavily defended the town and mountain were; and also gives you an impression of how long the allies had had to study the german defences in depth. (please note the JPG's are normal size on my computer but may appear too large on other systems)

    Most interesting is the menion of a "reported tunnel" between the amphitheatre and castle hill. Has anyone got anything more on this?
     
    Smudger Jnr likes this.
  2. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    And here is the final image (i'm missing a small portion of the top left of the map).
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Phaethon -
    Good research by yourself but - a comment is necessary - it all seems to be so good in this day and age - however it did not appear to the men on the ground - especially the Kiwi's and Ron at that time that the alledged "Intelligent" staff wallahs had any kind of clue as to what made the task so difficult with the terrain - weather - lack of ammo -support - food etc - and the beating that they were taking just with being there - not too many staff people ventured out of their warm whatever to actually see what it was all about.

    this was finally apparent when the Kiwi's - STILL recovering from their hammering in the 2nd and 3rd battles - were detailed to lead the charge into the Liri valley of death with the Gustav/Hitler lines at Diadem in May - Tank killing grounds where Gerry lost 14 Tanks in minutes - half a mile away the 51st RTR were doing the same -at the last minute the Kiwi's were replaced by the Canadian 1st Infantry & 5th Armoured with Gerry Chester's mob attached- instead of the 21st Tanks who had been all but buried with a landslide - yes - in Sunny Italy after weeks of rain near Presenzaro. But we did actually hear the beautiful song of the Nightingales during a lull - quite beautiful as I recalled - the panther Tank showed up first in that area of Frosinone and played hell with all Tanks along with the Panzersturms - the only 17lb's in the area were lost so we were back to the 25lb's and 6 Lb's... then we had Gen.Mark Clark bitching that 8th army was too slow- and promising to shoot us if we went anywhere near Rome......those were the fun days....no stress counsellors - no compensation - no home leave - just get on with it ...and we did !
    Cheers

    Cheers
     
    dbf likes this.
  4. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Just going off the top of my head Phaethon from what I've read I don't recall reading anything about tunnels. I agree with you Tom our boys (Kiwis) didn't have a fair idea of the German defences. The bombing of the Cassino and the Monastery provided the Germans with even better defensive positions which did not help the cause.

    Tom, You mention Gen. Clark and from the one Kiwi Vet I have spoken with and from various Cassino books with a NZ focus, Clark is not a very popular man, he is seen as just about the sole reason for NZ's high casualties at Cassino.
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Andy -
    There is no arguement that Mark Clark was slightly unpopular with most squaddies at or even near Cassino in those days....he had his own 36th Div at San Pietro damn near massacred - then sent in the Britsh Xth Corps to clear up the way to Cassino - with horrendous casualties. Then the French Divs went in North of the Monastery and were doing well and might have cut Highway 6 - but his 34th Div ran into trouble nearer the Monastery so he hauled the French back to help them and the Battle was lost -

    then came the Kiwis for the 2nd and 3rd Battles.

    One Kiwi wandered over to a tank belonging to the 16/5th Lancers at the Station and asked the crew why did they think they were called "Kiwi's" - the answer went into legend " we are blind - we cannot fly - and we are becoming extinct up here " He was right as the Kiwis never did recover and made indifferent showings at the Gothic Line and beyond - much the same as the 4th Indian - it was a helluva beating there as did the 78th - 46th - 56th Divs as they went off to Egypt for a rest and reforming.
    At that time we lost 7 Divisions for the South of France gig

    Monty's idea MIGHT have been better - go up the East coast to Pescara - over the mountains and take Rome from the East - but No - Clark had to go head on like a Bull in heat...thousands died.....
    Cheers
     
  6. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Most defiantly a classic line that one! As you mentioned no one was spared from Clark's craziness not even his own men. Unfortunately I don't think Clark' behaviour helped the Kiwi's opinion of Americans as a whole.
     
  7. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    Phaethon -
    Good research by yourself but - a comment is necessary - it all seems to be so good in this day and age - however it did not appear to the men on the ground - especially the Kiwi's and Ron at that time that the alledged "Intelligent" staff wallahs had any kind of clue as to what made the task so difficult with the terrain

    Cheers

    I have to disagree with you there Tom.

    This is divisional level; from around the 20th May (third Battle of Cassino); and as I said, represents what the (divisional theatre) understood to be the situation on the cassino front from prior to the (penultimate) attack... an attack which represented the last real attempt to take Cassino town before it was bypassed in the final assault on the monistary. Note that the map is mostly a picture from the Cassino (town) perspective.

    Whilst I do not doubt the mens courage on the ground (my own grandfather was stationed in Cassino and I heard many stories of it first hand); and whilst I also do not doubt that this map is not the complete picture, and even if it was 100% accurate enemy mobile possitions are likely to change (note that most german troops had pulled out of the city itself before the final battle).

    I firmly believe that it nether the less represents the information given to high command before the 3rd battle, which therefore dictated their decisions; it also gives a fair idea how how formidable the task was. Therefore I again state that I this map is actually quite a useful source.
     
  8. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Phaethon,

    I too must also admit to never having read anything about tunnels at Cassino.

    However it was common place in the old days to build tunnels as bolt holes etc in cases of siege etc, and it was also a good way of infiltrating troops behind the attackers whenever possible.

    It would be great to be able to confirm if the tunnels were used by the German forces, although from your post it appears that it was denied.

    It would also be great to be able to obtain old plans of the buildings to see if the tunnels are shown.

    All very intriguing.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  9. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    Given the length of the tunnels shown on the map they would have to be very far underground to survive all the bombing and stonking that went on. TBH i'd not believe it because of the unlikely length; but we do seem to have at least 1 account of them being there. I'll do some more digging and see what we get.
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Phaethon -
    You are of course entitled to disagree all day long about your maps being 100% accurate - my point was that not too many "Intelligence" wallahs - at whatever level be it Divisional -Corps -Army or Group or whatever appeared on the scene to study what the enemy was doing - or the conditions there - and we are aware that the enemy had vacated the town of Cassino prior to Daidem as it was no longer relevant and thus allowed the Poles to do their thing at the Monastery - the fact that they had allowed the Kiwis to spearhead the Diadem operation told all of us that they were clueless on the state of play !
    We are also aware that the men on the spot had a very narrow view of "the big picture" - including your Grandfather - and that historians are prone to "revision" at times usually to satisfy Hollywood but the men on the spot KNEW the conditions under which they had to fight - most historians didn't !
    Cheers
     
  11. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    I'm not entirely sure about your point on this one Tom. I'm not trying to say anything other then the fact that i've put up a map that I thought some people might find interesting, which was based on what intelligence at the time believed to be the defences of the monistary and town at Cassino prior to the attack that was taking place on the 21st. I'm certainly not trying to say anything on the lions for lambs issue.
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Phaethon -
    No One is trying to discredit you - the maps are indeed interesting - BUT -my point is that they also can be figments of some intelligence wallahs dream of what he thought were the defences at that place in that time frame - the staff planners at HQ depended on input from the intelligence wallahs to finalise plans for all operations - then why did the planners not object to having the Kiwi's - and 4th Indian to spearhead the Diadem - they should have known that both divisions were not fit for purpose as they say to-day.
    4th Indian went over to the quiet sector on the Adriatic coast to lick their wounds - the Kiwi's went back to Benevento- Campobasso area for their recupertion- and the British divs went off to Egypt - the 78th after Rome.

    The spearhead therefore for the Diadem was the 1st & 5th Canadians with 25th Tanks
    - 78th Div - 4th Div - 8th Indian and the poles on the heights - once HQ woke up to the fact that their initial plan was not likely to get anywhere.

    The main problem - as many of us saw it at the time was very bad intelligence - and equally bad leadership - with Gen. Oliver Leese boasting that he had 2000 tanks and could afford to lose 50% of them - he damn near did and he certainly ran out of Infantry - on the other end was Mark Clark ...enough said !
    Cheers
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Phaethon
    just a PS as the 6th British Armoured was also involved in the initial push to the Gustav line - and 6th South African Div taking over at Agnani to head up to Lago Trasemino area - with 5th Cdn Armoured meeting up with the first Panther PZ5's at near Frosinone, which Intelligence didn't seem to be aware - it might have been their attempt to suprise us !

    The whole thing was a bloody mess with all of those divisions trying to get through the gap at Aquino- 6th Armoured bumping into 5th Cdn..a whole Agra coming up too early..with 21st Tanks in the way....etc ! Not too many lions or lambs - lots of mad goats though
    Cheers
     
  14. Phaethon

    Phaethon Historian

    These are the maps taken from the 6th armoured division HQ at TNA.
     
  15. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I'm late to the party - apologies.

    Is there any chance of a repost of this map?
     
  16. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Recce_Mitch and Charley Fortnum like this.
  17. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    This is a fascinating map and a real barometer of the state of British & US intelligence gathering at Cassino in the first three months. The vital ground at Cassino was Point 593 and this was heavily fortified and defended by the Germans - they recognised it as the essential piece of ground, the ownership of which allowed the Allies to be held firmly in check. On this map, Point 593 is even not shown as being in German hands.
     
  18. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Some time ago I posted a report, contained in the 56 Recce war diaries, concerning their X Squadron, who operated within 100 yards of Pt 593 in April 44. The report is short, to the point, and gives a flavour of the battle and the conditions they endured.
    Pt 593 report.jpg
     
  19. LesMartin

    LesMartin Junior Member

    My father, served in X Sqn, which is confirmed by the fact he was wounded on 24th April 1944, there were only two ORs wounded on that date from 56th, and my fathers service records shows him as being evacuated on the 25th.
     
  20. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    If you would like to see exactly what X Sqn were doing at that time, I will be up on Snakeshead Ridge on 9 Jun 17. I am taking a group to Cassino 8-11 Jun 17 and you are more than welcome to join it. More info at www.cassinobattlefields.co.uk.

    Snakeshead Ridge was overlooked from all sides and the forward edge of it was completely dominated by the German position at Point 593. I am not surprised that your father was wounded. It was a grim place to be in Jan-May 44 and the Poles suffered horribly by the time they eventually captured Point 593 on 17 May 44 - as others had before them but had failed completely.

    It is quite a story.

    Regards

    Frank
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    Recce_Mitch likes this.

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