Cassino

Discussion in 'Italy' started by Gerry Chester, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Troops from several countries fought in the four battles for Cassino. In your opinion, whose contribution was the most significant and why?
     
  2. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Interesting one... the cemetery at Cassino is one of the most metropolitan I know of. Personally I think it is difficult to answer a question like this: the Brits slogged away throughout the fighting. The Americans performed incredibily in crossing the Rapido. The Maories fought well at the Station. The NZ and Indian Engineers pulled off a miracle at Cavendish Road. And the Poles finally took what was left, while the old Battle Axe Division pushed up the Liri Valley... it was a combined effort, wasn't it?
     
  3. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Ouch! That's a tough one. Everybody but the Finnish border cops fought at Cassino, it seems. From what I can tell, I think it was pretty much a combined effort, as said upstairs. I would vote for the French, oddly enough, because Marshal Juin found the way to make the Germans ultimately decide to pull out of the monastery and the heights around it. But it would not be an overwhelming landslide for the French. Had the Canadians and Poles not been attacking there, the Germans might not have pulled out. And had the New Zealanders, Indians, Britons, and Americans paid a stiff price in blood as well. It's almost a rhetorical question, and I do not believe there is such a thing as a rhetorical question. All questions have answers. That's why teachers put time limits on tests. :)
     
  4. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    ...... and to add,. there were Japanese origin too there
    under the American flag..
     
  5. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by GUMALANGI@Apr 24 2005, 07:24 PM
    ...... and to add,. there were Japanese origin too there
    under the American flag..
    [post=33453]Quoted post[/post]
    Yes, the 100th Infantry Battalion, which became part of the 442nd Regiment. The 442nd, by the way, still exists, as a Hawaii National Guard outfit, part of the 25th Division. Many of the men of the 100th came from Hawaii.
     
  6. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    Originally posted by Kiwiwriter+Apr 25 2005, 02:32 PM-->(Kiwiwriter @ Apr 25 2005, 02:32 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-GUMALANGI@Apr 24 2005, 07:24 PM
    ...... and to add,. there were Japanese origin too there
    under the American flag..
    [post=33453]Quoted post[/post]
    Yes, the 100th Infantry Battalion, which became part of the 442nd Regiment. The 442nd, by the way, still exists, as a Hawaii National Guard outfit, part of the 25th Division. Many of the men of the 100th came from Hawaii.
    [post=33484]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    You mean the present time? or during WW2?,..

    I thought most of 100th Infantry btn was recruited from Japanese camp to proof their loyalty to US. well,.. i migt be wrong.

    Cheers
    Gumalangi
     
  7. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by GUMALANGI+Apr 25 2005, 03:10 PM-->(GUMALANGI @ Apr 25 2005, 03:10 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by Kiwiwriter@Apr 25 2005, 02:32 PM
    <!--QuoteBegin-GUMALANGI@Apr 24 2005, 07:24 PM
    ...... and to add,. there were Japanese origin too there
    under the American flag..
    [post=33453]Quoted post[/post]
    Yes, the 100th Infantry Battalion, which became part of the 442nd Regiment. The 442nd, by the way, still exists, as a Hawaii National Guard outfit, part of the 25th Division. Many of the men of the 100th came from Hawaii.
    [post=33484]Quoted post[/post]

    You mean the present time? or during WW2?,..

    I thought most of 100th Infantry btn was recruited from Japanese camp to proof their loyalty to US. well,.. i migt be wrong.

    Cheers
    Gumalangi
    [post=33508]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]Not quite. The 100th Battalion came from Hawaiian Japanese (former HNG men) and from internment camps, and came first. They regarded themselves as better than the 442nd, which followed, and there was tension between them. The 442nd did come from internment camps. The 442nd still exists, and I believe one of its battalions is the 100th.
     
  8. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    Originally posted by Kiwiwriter@Apr 26 2005, 02:15 PM
    [Not quite. The 100th Battalion came from Hawaiian Japanese (former HNG men) and from internment camps, and came first. They regarded themselves as better than the 442nd, which followed, and there was tension between them. The 442nd did come from internment camps. The 442nd still exists, and I believe one of its battalions is the 100th.
    [post=33543]Quoted post[/post]

    Ths for the infos,..

    Cheers.
    Gumalangi
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Unfortunately we have drifted off the question which was who made a significant contribution at

    Cassino - the Japanese did not arrive in Italy until the battle for Florence was shaping up. My money would

    be on both the Kiwi's and the 4th Indian divs who went in twice !
    Tomcan
     
  10. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    There were four separate battles for Cassino and the first three were not successful. In the final battle, I think the credit must go to:

    1. The French who, with their trained mountain troops, were able to take the mountainous area behind Cassino and undermine the position.

    2. The Poles, who actually took the monastery.

    3. Alexander, plus the commanders of 5th and 8th Armies for a successful, complex operation which undermined the whole German position and would have been more successful if Clark had obeyed his orders and established a blocking position instead of going for Rome.
     
  11. egbert

    egbert Member

    My godness what a question. What would the Brits philosophy about without the Germans?
     
  12. sokka

    sokka Junior Member

  13. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    (Gerry Chester @ Dec 29 2004, 11:45 AM) [post=30329]Troops from several countries fought in the four battles for Cassino. In your opinion, whose contribution was the most significant and why?
    [/b]
    I will vote for any country that didn't bomb that fortress. That's one for the fly boys that believe that air attacks were the solution to everything.

    But I do wonder about the thinking of the air wings. Why not simply drop fuel bombs on that target and burn them out? It would have been over in about 15 minutes. Its hard to shoot at troops advancing when you are burning to death. They had napalm. Why not drop it in 55 gallon barrels and saturate the place with fire causing everything inside still alive to flee where they could be captured or shot. Am I missing something here?
     
  14. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    (jimbotosome @ Nov 27 2005, 07:42 PM) [post=42157]
    They had napalm. [/b]

    Although napalm was developed in 1942, it was not used operationally until July 1944 in France and during the invasion of Tinian. This is quite a few months after the bombing of the monastery.

    I wonder if they even had any in the Italian theatre up to mid 1944.
     
  15. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    (angie999 @ Nov 26 2005, 06:07 AM) [post=42116]There were four separate battles for Cassino and the first three were not successful. In the final battle, I think the credit must go to:

    1. The French who, with their trained mountain troops, were able to take the mountainous area behind Cassino and undermine the position.

    2. The Poles, who actually took the monastery.

    3. Alexander, plus the commanders of 5th and 8th Armies for a successful, complex operation which undermined the whole German position and would have been more successful if Clark had obeyed his orders and established a blocking position instead of going for Rome.
    [/b]

    Yes, the French and Poles do not get much attention in America and Britain, because of the language barrier. Their general, Juin, figured out that mountains were not barriers, but could be used by trained troops as passages, and did so successfully. His views did not get a good hearing from his bosses because of the poor French record in 1940 and thereafter. Anders and his men were rendered obscure by the Soviet takeover of Poland.

    I have several books on Cassino that correct the record. Horrible battle, for both sides.

    Napalm was not ready yet...and Churchill and FDR vetoed the use of poison gas, unless the Germans used it first.
     
  16. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    (angie999 @ Nov 28 2005, 06:26 AM) [post=42167]Although napalm was developed in 1942, it was not used operationally until July 1944 in France and during the invasion of Tinian. This is quite a few months after the bombing of the monastery.

    I wonder if they even had any in the Italian theatre up to mid 1944.
    [/b]
    Well, it really didn't have to be napalm. Simply dropping 55 gallon drums of aviation fuel would have burned everything inside to crispy-critters. Once they bombed the place into rubble, the gasoline would permeate the entire facility and eventually everything in it would catch on fire and burn the oxygen out of the facility. This would probably kill them all but would at least allow the forces to move in close to the facility and assault it once the fuel burned out (and cooled off a bit). Think of how many lives, time and money would have been saved.
     
  17. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    hI ALL,

    My vote would have to go to the kiwis, call me biased, but my Uncle was severly wounded thier and cassino has always been sacred to us ever sibce.

    cheers kiwiazza.
     
  18. redrat

    redrat Junior Member

    im glad i found this post ,
    "be on both the Kiwi's and the 4th Indian divs who went in twice !
    Tomcan"
    well tomcan im glad you said that , i re-enact the 4th indian division and know one knows who they are and who was in them . but about cassio ,

    After the battle of cassio the 4th indain division who attacked the monestry and the castle ! claimbed to be first in (as did the polish), they had foward units who got with in several meters of the monestry and where lost contact with , there is a notable case of an indain NCO leading 3 other indians troops in a charge for the castle and dyeing very close to the walls, but when the polish troops finaly took the monestry they found webbing all over the monestry which was not theirs and it had indian markings on it . the german officer in charge of holding the monestry ( i forget his name) himself said that he had to get ride of several groups of indians several times from the monestry who had entered it . I belive that we can not even begin to talk about who fought the most there , as we were not there and it is not right we do so , also other battles around the monestry were just as improtant . everyone seems to forget about the surronding ridges the castle etc
    the 4th indian division was also a montian division after north africa
     
  19. jacobtowne

    jacobtowne Senior Member

    Here's a photo of New Zealand machine gunners in the Monte Cassino Sector.
    They are armed with Smith & Wesson M&P revolvers.
    JT

    Credit: U.S. Handguns of WWII: The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers by Charles Pate.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    im glad i found this post ,
    "be on both the Kiwi's and the 4th Indian divs who went in twice !
    Tomcan"
    well tomcan im glad you said that , i re-enact the 4th indian division and know one knows who they are and who was in them . but about cassio ,

    After the battle of cassio the 4th indain division who attacked the monestry and the castle ! claimbed to be first in (as did the polish), they had foward units who got with in several meters of the monestry and where lost contact with , there is a notable case of an indain NCO leading 3 other indians troops in a charge for the castle and dyeing very close to the walls, but when the polish troops finaly took the monestry they found webbing all over the monestry which was not theirs and it had indian markings on it . the german officer in charge of holding the monestry ( i forget his name) himself said that he had to get ride of several groups of indians several times from the monestry who had entered it . I belive that we can not even begin to talk about who fought the most there , as we were not there and it is not right we do so , also other battles around the monestry were just as improtant . everyone seems to forget about the surronding ridges the castle etc
    the 4th indian division was also a montian division after north africa

    Redrat .....

    well you see - some of us were there- and we know what went on as some obviously have read the wrong books -

    The fourth battle - and the French mountain divisions went over the Aurunci Mountains to the WEST of Cassino from the British held bridgehead over the Rapido/Gariliano Rivers - where there was very little defences or German troops and thus were able to run over the hills etc and beat the 8th Army to above Agnani which was over their boundary - the 8th army meanwhile were still trying to batter down the main defences at both the Gustav and Hitler lines...ask Gerry Chester - he was knocked about at Pontecorvo/Aquino....so it could be said that the French were running through an open door and the 8th army were trying to unlock a bolted door - big difference !

    This gave Kesselring pause for thought and he then ordered the German Commanders - Vingtenhoff and Etterlin to pull back and thus the Poles were able to enter the Monastery.

    Meanwhile US Gen.Clark had instructed his V1 corps Commander - Truscott - to ignore Alexander's orders to head for Valmantone and attempt to cut off the retreating two German armies and head for Rome - so that he could cut down the sign for ROMA for his back garden in California !

    Incidently 4th Indian did not become a Mountain Div in North Africa - but in Ethiopia's Keren Heights - which was another Cassino - when they were sent down there just before the Battle of Beda Fomm when as small British force under Gen. O'Conner wiped out a whole Italian army ! Each 4th Indian brigade had a British battalion. Camerons - Surrey's - West Kents etc.
     

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