Centuripe 78 Div - unit ID?

Discussion in 'Italy' started by Giberville, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Took these from a Movietone News dated 16 August 1943. Supposedly shows Centuripe after capture. Obviously 78 Div but which battalion? The jeep's number 81 is for Div Battle School - is that correct?
    Still 1 - looks like a brew up as jeep passes by...
    centuripe jeep 81.jpg

    Still 2 - soldiers gather in for a cigarette

    centuripe soldiers.jpg
    Still 3 - officer appears wearing forage cap...can this help identify the unit? He is very distinctive - perhaps he can be identified?
    centuripe officer.jpg
    My thoughts are possibly 6th Battalion The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers? I believe they wore a blue forage cap with 2 buttons to front and a buff trim which can be made out in the photo.
     
  2. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    I suppose this:


    there is a date of 5th August shown at one point - 7 min 21 seconds.... 2 days after the Skins/Faughs captured the town.. by then the Skins were on at the Simeto...so.. not sure
     
  3. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    One of the Skins' officers, Percy Hamilton, wrote later

    "The press report of the taking of the town was typical. The write up we got was deserved, but, as I said, the carriers came up with the rations in the morning, so the picture published of “Bren carriers rushing in to capture Centuripe” is misleading. Another thing – at no time before or after the battle did I ever hear the troops call the place, ‘Cherry Ripe’, the name given to it by some misinformed correspondent. Of course, one has to excuse these people a little as they only arrived in the afternoon, several hours after their beloved carriers! One of our officers, posed in front of a door as if just bursting into it; another told the fellow if he wanted action photos, he could come and get them when there was some action on..."
     
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  4. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

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  5. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

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  6. dml34

    dml34 Junior Member

    81 was the marking of 38 (Irish) Inf Bde

    Dave
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Tony,

    that shot is on the other side of the town looking north east .. not sure if it is taken at the same spot...in fact I don't think it is.. if this is the 5th then defo not the Skins.

    you previously mentioned 11 Brigade - ie 2 LF , 5 Northants and 1 ES

    update. now seen the follow on note which suggests the Brigade HQ people who may have stayed in the town while the attacks went on elsewhere.. hence how relaxed they look.



     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  8. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Good thought - so perhaps we are looking at 38 Inf Bde HQ troops - they look like infantry though so perhaps the Defence Platoon; I think Infantry brigade HQs had a defence platoon?
     
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  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Interesting attachment there Dave, thank you, do you happen to have similar for the rest of 78th Division?
     
  10. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    At full strength Irish Brigade HQ had around 94 NCOs/Fusiliers/Riflemen.. so yes, they did.
     
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  11. dml34

    dml34 Junior Member

    Tony
    The earliest markings that I have for 78 Inf Div are 18 Aug 44. They are attached.

    Dave
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Fabulous, Dave, very grateful.
     
  13. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    centuripe para prisoner.jpg

    Another interesting still from the same sequence. A perhaps rather arrogant German para is brought in as a prisoner by a 78 Div soldier; his Div badge flaps around on his shoulder - it is fairly rare in the photos and films to see these worn by infantry anywhere near the front. Argylls this time? TOS is worn.
     
  14. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Then and now...well I won't be visiting for some time soon so here is a virtual comparison...thanks to Google Earth...
    centuripe centre.jpg centuripe then and now centre.jpg
     
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  15. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Walking through the same scene is this Fusilier. This comes from Illustrated London News and I think taken around the same period as the film above. centuripe bespectacled fusilier.jpg

    Bush shirt worn in KD with what appears to be wool battledress trousers - must be hot for August but I am guessing more hard wearing than KD and better than shorts if you are crawling over rubble! He has 'unblancoed' webbing and his weapon is the SMLE, with sword bayonet seen on left hip. Helmet is adorned with net and scrim. But what is slung across him - map case?
    His unit is given in Illustrated London News as Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.
     
  16. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    That last one is defo the Skins.. I believe it was Percy Hamilton's IO platoon..with some of the men in the photo below taken in Guelma.

    This photo taken by me in Centuripe in 2014 when I visited with Percy's son.. taken from the edge of the main square.. I think I've seen a moving version of the photo and the animals on the wall were also in the shot then...but I believe a different time line from the photo in the original query.


    P1110160 - Copy.JPG
    hamiltonguelma0001.jpg
     
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  17. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Great photo with insignia clearly shown - thanks for posting that. Just comparing the photos: bottom right, both wearing spectacles. Do you know out of interest if it is one or other of these two men? Second man in is the officer, wearing the coloured field service cap - and man in Illustrated London News has a map case I think over shoulder, but in all other respects is dressed and equipped as a private.
    Is that Ten Platoon or I.O. in your post?
     
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  18. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Hamilton was the IO at the time - in the photo from Tunisia:

    Back Row: Fusilier Rolfe, Fusilier Keen, L/Cpl Swainson, Fusilier Francis.

    Front Row: Fusilier Ruane, Sgt O’Connor, Lt Hamilton, Cpl Fielder.

    Some excerpts of Lt Hamilton's account of 2/3 Aug '43
    “Looking to the left across the valley, we could see the village of Centuripe about 500 yards away. It stood on the top of a hill and the side facing us was a cliff covered with cactus. There was a church on the top of the cliff and the houses of the village ran from that in a crescent to the right towards the next ridge.

    Late in the afternoon, the CO gave orders to the right hand companies to advance and the remaining two were to make straight for the town across the valley and up the cliff through the cactus.. We were able to watch the fellows climbing up the cliff and getting to the first couple of buildings; someone on our side dropped a smoke bomb near them.. After they disappeared among the first buildings, we could only see odd figures crossing gaps and could not tell who they were.

    There was a cemetery on the extreme left of the town and we had a very good view of a barrage brought down on it to assist the RIrF, who were attacking in that direction. Just before dusk, we saw a big column of smoke go up from the middle of the town and it looked like an explosion, and we learnt afterwards that the Jerry had brewed up a tank he couldn’t get away. We took our usual turns on the wireless and nothing much came through till three in the morning when the town was reported clear.

    At dawn, therefore, Bttn HQ moved up to the town across the valley and up the hill by a track leading to the left of the cliff and into the town near the church. The people were beginning to come out of the houses and holes in the ground in which they had taken refuge. The Adjutant sent me to find a suitable house for Bttn HQ, so I went up to the square and found a sort of concert hall for the chaps and a clinic for the command post.

    We got settled down, I went to look for some wine for the command post and found a sort of pub. I couldn’t speak any Italian so I pointed to a large bottle and indicated that I wanted an ordinary sized one. These large bottles that they have were about two feet high and eight inches in diameter and shaped like an ordinary bottle, and must hold about five gallons. The man in the pub misunderstood me and he went and filled this monstrosity up to where I had pointed. I was too tired to argue, so I took the thing in my arms and away up the street with it. It wasn’t very good wine anyway!

    At about 1100hrs, we heard that the carriers were on their way up with the rations. This was good news as we were very hungry and most of the men were eating hunks of dry bread that the civvies had give them. I went down to the entrance of the town to get the transport organised as it came up as the CO only wanted the minimum in the square..."
     
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  19. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    So to tie some things up...I think the date given in the film of 5th August refers to the diving scene that follows and not Centuripe. I think the film was likely before this date. The WD 6 Innisks:

    3rd August – CENTURIPE.

    0330 Town reported clear of enemy. D Coy, which had been ordered to work along the ridge after the occupation of pt 644 found it clear of the enemy and made contact with C Coy on pt 709.

    0630 Bttn HQ moved into the town and B Coy also came in from the east. The road now being open, rations and S Coy were brought up and the Bttn spent the day reorganising. The town has suffered severely from shelling and bombing but the civilian population were pleased to see us in place of the Bosche.

    The enemy consisted of the 3rd Parachute Regiment.

    Total casualties were 8 ORs killed. 4 officers and 36 ORs wounded.

    1830 Brigade moved north from the town and the Innisks took up a position round 667929 in a square formation with Bttn HQ in the gully.

    The night was quiet. The REs started bulldozing a bypass round the a blown bridge over the gully


    I think we are perhaps looking at 3rd August in the film with elements of Bn HQ, S Coy, Admin Coy in the town itself after the fighting, hence all the Bedford trucks and carrriers/jeeps. Brigade troops are also present as has been identified (81). Civilian population are out in force in the film as the WD suggests.

    The exact identity of the officer and his men in the first few stills remain a mystery...but my money is on him wearing a Innisks coloured service cap...
     
  20. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Hard to say really....I guess we know the Army Film Unit came into town on the 3rd according to Hamilton and.that the Skins had moved out of the town by 630pm to 667929 as had Brigade HQ to 669923 by 7 .. out of interest what specific matter are you researching?
     

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