Churchill Tank "CHORLEY" 4th Battalion, Grenadier Guards, 6th Tank Brigade

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by aggyaggy, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. aggyaggy

    aggyaggy Junior Member

    Hi All,

    I am new on this Forum, so I hope I have gone about this the right way!

    I am a local Historian and have previously published books about my hometown (Chorley, Lancashire) sponsoring a Spitfire (P8593) and a Submarine (HMS Ursula).

    I have since found that (although perhaps not directly sponsored by the Town) there was also a Churchill tank named CHORLEY. This came about by browsing eBay and noticing a Unimax model of the tank and it was liveried up as CHORLEY!

    I have contacted the Tank Museum and they were kind enough to reply with the following:

    CHORLEY Tank:
    1st Squadron, C troop, 4th Battalion, Grenadier Guards, 6th Tank Brigade. The two other tanks in her troop were called CLAYDON and CRESWELL.

    The source for this information is taken from Patrick Forbes6th Guards Tank Brigade. It’s likely that Chorley had a significance for the crew, troop leader, when they were asked to come up with a names beginning with C.

    I havent specifically researched WW2 armour and would appreciate a little advice. Can anyone out there point me in the right direction to research the following aspects:

    1. The details of this specific model of Tank.
    2. The reason why this tank was named CHORLEY.
    3. The movements of its Unit.
    4. Service men who may have served on this Tank.

    Or possibly, someone already knows the history of this specific tank that they would be willing to share.

    I find it fascinating to think that the town of Chorley could have had a sponsored machine in the three forces during the war. Might this have been unique?

    Many thanks for taking the time to read this.
     
  2. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hi Aggy and welcome to WW2Talk.
    Excellent bit of research for the GG and tank experts here to look into, good luck with it.
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    aggyagy
    you might have to look further than the crew or even the Troop leaders as most names of Tanks were invariably "suggested " by the Brigadier - who just MIGHT have had some connection with Chorley
    Our Churchills were named Diogenes - Decisive - Defender - no real reason but they all started with "D"
    Cheers
     
  4. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi All,

    I am new on this Forum, so I hope I have gone about this the right way!

    I am a local Historian and have previously published books about my hometown (Chorley, Lancashire) sponsoring a Spitfire (P8593) and a Submarine (HMS Ursula).

    I have since found that (although perhaps not directly sponsored by the Town) there was also a Churchill tank named CHORLEY. This came about by browsing eBay and noticing a Unimax model of the tank and it was liveried up as CHORLEY!

    I have contacted the Tank Museum and they were kind enough to reply with the following:

    CHORLEY Tank:
    1st Squadron, C troop, 4th Battalion, Grenadier Guards, 6th Tank Brigade. The two other tanks in her troop were called CLAYDON and CRESWELL.

    The source for this information is taken from Patrick Forbes6th Guards Tank Brigade. It’s likely that Chorley had a significance for the crew, troop leader, when they were asked to come up with a names beginning with C.

    I havent specifically researched WW2 armour and would appreciate a little advice. Can anyone out there point me in the right direction to research the following aspects:

    1. The details of this specific model of Tank.
    2. The reason why this tank was named CHORLEY.
    3. The movements of its Unit.
    4. Service men who may have served on this Tank.

    Or possibly, someone already knows the history of this specific tank that they would be willing to share.

    I find it fascinating to think that the town of Chorley could have had a sponsored machine in the three forces during the war. Might this have been unique?

    Many thanks for taking the time to read this.


    Hi Aggyaggy,

    Welcome to the site.
    I will try and answer some of your questions, others more in the know will be able to add more.

    6th Guards Tank Brigade was made up of 3 regiments.
    4th Battalion Grenadier Guards ( Town Names )
    4th Battalion Coldstream Guards ( Animal Names )
    3rd Battalion Scots Guards ( Scottish towns / places )

    CHORLEY was most likely to have been a re-worked Mk III or IV but until a census number for her is found this is currently just supposition.
    All the tanks of 4th Battalion Grenadier Guards were named after towns and cities in England. The 1st Squadron 1 troop beginning A, 2 troop B, 3 troop C, 4 troop E, 5 troop F and 1st Squadron HQ starting D.
    There are I believe Senior Members on the site who were in the regiment and may be able to help with names and the regiments movements.
    Regiments, be they armoured or infantry etc, naming their vehicles after towns and cities is not unusual at all. In fact there is a Churchill from 4th GG Battalion HQ named after the city I live in, Wolverhampton. I too would like to find out more about this tank.
    Town sponsorship was not unusual either, I think you will find that most towns and cities did their bit, all part of the war effort. Wolverhampton, named above, not only sponsored tanks but several warships and aircraft. There was a company named Boulton Paul that manufactured aircraft in my city and also Guy Motors that made trucks, armoured cars etc.

    Anyway I hope the attached link and spreadsheet is of interest.

    https://sites.google.com/site/6thguardstankbrigade/home
     

    Attached Files:

    dbf and Smudger Jnr like this.
  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Kevin,

    An excellent start as far as answer to the question go.

    Although I am a Prestonian in exile I spent my last 10 years Police service at Chorley.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  6. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Kevin,

    An excellent start as far as answer to the question go.

    Although I am a Prestonian in excile I spent my last 10 years Police service at Chorley.

    Regards
    Tom

    Hi Tom,

    Never mind, PRESTON from 3rd Squadron 11 troop is another Grenadier Guards Churchill. Sadly this so far is another unconfirmed Mk without a census number. Unless anyone out there has a photo that could confirm either?

    As a follow on from Aggy's question about sponsoring. Attached is a couple of pages from The Black Country Bugle. A local publication that covers many histrorical aspects of the Black Country. Here it covers towns and cities that have adopted or sponsored WWII warships.

    cheers
    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

  7. aggyaggy

    aggyaggy Junior Member

    Thanks to everyone who has posted on this so far- what a great start and what a credit to the forum.

    I will keep on digging and post any facts of interest on here.
     
  8. aggyaggy

    aggyaggy Junior Member

    The model makers Unimax (of China) have been kind enough to send me the pictures they used to design the model of CHORLEY.
    Their information came from the tank book by Jean Restayn.
    Photos attached.
    If anyone has this book, could they tell me if it credits the picture of CHORLEY to anyone. If im lucky, an original photo of CHORLEY will have been used for the basis of the picture.
     
  9. aggyaggy

    aggyaggy Junior Member

    CHORLEY tank drawing
     

    Attached Files:

  10. aggyaggy

    aggyaggy Junior Member

    I dont know if this can be taken as concrete evidence (but it may be something to work from) but the Jean Restayn drawing of CHORLEY shows a number of 29613.
     
  11. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    I dont know if this can be taken as concrete evidence (but it may be something to work from) but the Jean Restayn drawing of CHORLEY shows a number of 29613.

    29613 is a mobilization number for 4th Grenadier Guards.
     
  12. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Restayn appears to have access to photos no one else has seen. Many moons ago I noticed his UK tank 'drawings' had markings/details that could only have come from real life.
    He has in the past used details taken from one vehicle and put them on another but he is the one illustrator (I believe) who uses photos of the actual vehicle.
     
  13. bob90

    bob90 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Kevan has given a sound reply. The nearest i can go, seeing Churchill Tank Chorley on a number of occasions, spotting the name, oh thats No1 Sqn Clp Cook I Knew well Killed in Germany Apr45. The last occasion I saw Chorley early Aug 44 on Estery Ridge Normandy. No1 sqd lost 3 Tanks to a dug-in Tiger at the bottom of a church tower. We were No2 Sqd 4GG back-up in another orchard 1oo yards away. I remember my loader/op & Tank/Cmr Commentating through my I/C box, but as T/Gunner/Op was glued to gun/sight left hand in spade/grip right hand on double trigger guard left foot on seat f/ peddle right foot guiding the loaded Besa Belt. All this drill explained just in case one thought we went along for the ride. bob90
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    oh thats No1 Sqn Clp Cook I Knew well Killed in Germany Apr45.


    CWGC - Casualty Details

    COOK, STANLEY WILLIAM
    Rank:Lance Corporal
    Service No:2622812
    Date of Death:04/04/1945
    Age:22
    Regiment/Service:Grenadier Guards 4th Bn.
    Grave Reference15. E. 6.
    CemeteryHANOVER WAR CEMETERY
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    You may find some answers in the following unit diaries held at the National Archives. Click the red link in my signature if you can't get there and want me to copy any for you:

    WO 166/4101 4 Grenadier Guards. 1940 Oct.- 1941 Dec.

    WO 166/8572 4 Grenadier Guards 1942 Jan.- Dec.

    WO 166/12466 4 Grenadier Guards 1943 Jan.-Dec.

    WO 171/1255 4 Grenadier Guards (Tank Battalion) 1944 Jan.- Dec.

    WO 171/5146 4 Grenadier Guards 1945 Jan.- Dec.
     
  16. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Restayn appears to have access to photos no one else has seen. Many moons ago I noticed his UK tank 'drawings' had markings/details that could only have come from real life.
    He has in the past used details taken from one vehicle and put them on another but he is the one illustrator (I believe) who uses photos of the actual vehicle.

    I see what you mean Michael. Shouldn't the Mk VII have circular side hatches?

    cheers
    Kevin
     
  17. bob90

    bob90 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi Kevan. I take it you were ref: Churchill Tank mark 7 that of course had circular side Panels along with circular Drivers Visa, as opposed to mark 5 having square side Panels and oblong Drivers Visa. Cheers bob90
     
  18. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Kevan. I take it you were ref: Churchill Tank mark 7 that of course had circular side Panels along with circular Drivers Visa, as opposed to mark 5 having square side Panels and oblong Drivers Visa. Cheers bob90

    Hello Bob,

    Yes it was a follow up to Michael's comment about Jean Restayn using details from one vehicle and putting them on another. The picture of CHORLEY in Aggy's post shows it having a square side doors but the text says it is a Mk VII, which I believe has round doors.

    CHORLEY tank drawing
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/grenadier-guards/97794d1358589477t-churchill-tank-%22chorley%22-grenadier-guards-img0010007-1-jpg http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/grenadier-guards/97795d1358589477t-churchill-tank-%22chorley%22-grenadier-guards-book-cover-jpg
     
  19. aggyaggy

    aggyaggy Junior Member

    Could CHORLEY have started life as a MkV and following refits, refurbs, etc, end up being classed as a MkVII ??
    So could that explain the MkV side doors on a MkVII captioned drawing?
     
  20. bob90

    bob90 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Aggyaggy. Churchill Tank "Chorley" was a Mark5. 4GG as a Tank batt numbered a total of 52 Tanks, about the same number R.E.M.E. Craftsmen attached, replacements & modifications were ongoing as the mark7 was gradually introduced as a new designed shaped turret & complete alround thickness in armour. So, akin to Army tradition your "stuck" with your name & number whenever, whatever, could be your answer. Most importantly, the name of a Tank amounted to sincerity or suspicion not so much to the Crew but to the P.B.I. it carried forward. bob90
     

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