Colour footage of WW2 glider take offs ... ?

Ive just spotted this forum, i wonder if anybody can help. My father (recently passed away sept 2012) flew to normandy in the 6th Airborne,12th Devonshire regiment, sister reg to the better known Ox and Bucks, He told me he flew over in an horsa as an airborne soldier at about 7pm behind an Halifax. Can i assume he was in one of the two horsa shown, and that it flew from Tarant Rushton? And that in fact it was operation Mallard? Dad threw the gauntlet down and asked me to find his glider number? His name was Harold Black and he was in A company. The only only company from the Devons to fly in to battle on that occasion. The rest caught up by sea later on. Any comments would be appreciated, email if you like, jon_black7@msn.com.

Just to add, The devons went by sea to the Ardennes to support the yanks, and later over the Rhine in operation Varsity.I,ve yet to research that op.

 

Jon, welcome back you have been here before see posts 15 yours and post 19 a pic of your Dad I presume.http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/airborne/33019-12th-battalion-devonshire-regiment-2.html Also WD for 12 devons 12th Battalion The Devonshire Regiment 'A'

 

Hi Cee,

I've just viewed your first post film, bloody great.

Did you notice the main parachute malfunction and deployed reserve at 2 mins-20 seconds in ?

Also,

From previous parachuting films I've viewed, the Americans appeared to favour the canopy first main parachute deployment sequence as the British preferred the rigging line then main canopy deployment system.

Perhaps this could be used as a guide when viewing film/photographs were identification is difficult.


Excellent topic.

Regards, Mick D

 

Mick,

You have much sharper eyes than me. I stepped through that sequence of frames and the line that pulls the chute from the pack is apparent preceding the the time you mention and less so afterwards, but the video is just not clear enough for me to say it failed.

The way I understand it both the American and Brit Paras used the static line to deploy their chutes. The Americans had the front chute as a standby if the there was problem in the initial deployment. The British argument was that they were jumping so low that by the time you realized there was problem the second chute would not have had time to fully fill out to be of any help and thus the choice of going with one chute only.

As far as the location of the American drop in the video I'm inclined to believe at this time that it occurred over Holland rather than Germany (Varsity) as the Romano Archives states. Not much to go on there other than the clarity of the day. The Varsity drop was clouded in smoke from the machines used by the Allies on the other side of the Rhine.

I may have misunderstood and stand to be corrected of course.

And best regards ...

 

Ive just spotted this forum, i wonder if anybody can help. My father (recently passed away sept 2012) flew to normandy in the 6th Airborne,12th Devonshire regiment, sister reg to the better known Ox and Bucks, He told me he flew over in an horsa as an airborne soldier at about 7pm behind an Halifax. Can i assume he was in one of the two horsa shown, and that it flew from Tarant Rushton? And that in fact it was operation Mallard? Dad threw the gauntlet down and asked me to find his glider number? His name was Harold Black and he was in A company. The only only company from the Devons to fly in to battle on that occasion. The rest caught up by sea later on. Any comments would be appreciated, email if you like, jon_black7@msn.com.

Just to add, The devons went by sea to the Ardennes to support the yanks, and later over the Rhine in operation Varsity.I,ve yet to research that op.

Jon,

Jon we are all where you are. It doesn't take much to realize that as you browse the various threads on WW2Talk. As far as this particular one goes I'm not sure we have nailed anything firmly. In other words this is pretty much a a research thread that you have to read carefully and make up your own mind and argue one way or the other. If you haven't already done so check out the Pegasus Archive for war diaries as Jason suggested and ParaData for further information. As far as establishing the glider your Father came in on on D-Day hopefully there is someone that can help you with that.

Like I always say if you can't go forward go sideways.

Regards ...

 

In regard to chalk numbers and LZ, your answer is I suspect in this link.Horsa Identification • FighterControl • Military Aviation Forum

 

Hi Cee,

I may have confused you, I do it to myself often

I know how the parachutes operate. My point is the American parachutes deploy Canopy first after the bag is opened by the Static Line, whereas the British Parachutes deploy the Rigging lines first followed by the canopy.


Ref the malfunction at 2 mins-20 secs into the film

Please see attached grab, you can see the smaller White parachute at the top of the frame and the malfunctioned main partially deployed above left of the Reserve.


Regards, Mick D.

 

Mick,

I see what you mean now and didn't realize there was a difference in how the British and American chutes unfurled and could be used as you say for identification purposes. As for the malfunction that goes by fairly quick on the video and it was pretty sharp of you to pick that up. That paratrooper seemed to have detected something was amiss early on and was able to respond with time to spare. A really good observation Mick and thanks for being patient with my obtuseness.

Jon,

If you haven't done so already check out Appendix 'A' on this war diary page concerning A Coy. As you well know A Coy 12th Devons took part in Operation Mallard. They left from Farringdon on the evening of D-Day at 1915 hrs and arrived in Normandy at LZW west of the canal.

You will have probably noticed that because there were no chalk numbers visible on the gliders taking off in the video the guys were attempting to identify squadrons from the plane markings and thus a possible location and time. The Tarrant Rushton aerial was from D-Day, but can we firmly say the same for the ground crew and takeoff scenes?

Hope that helps a bit ... Regards

 

You can actually see a variation of the front part of this video on ParaData. You have to go to page 2 and watch "Lt-Col Ken Mead describes the glider take-off for D-Day" from the video section for Normandy (Operation Overlord)

Normandy (Operation Overlord) - Videos

Some of the cuts are slightly different and you can see numbers on two of the Hamilcars as they are towed past on the runway. The video unfortunately is only 320x232 so the numbers which are hard to make out quickly lose clarity when expanded.

Later ...

 

given that it has been announced that scientists have found the Higgs boson particle, does it matter ? then what about the propagation of errors. with regard to the Tarrant Rushton Operation Mallard photograph (Sandy Barr website ) and statistics , the information is incorrect. a comprehensive list of chalk numbers, Halifax squadron codes / serial numbers, tug pilots and glider pilots is in my possession together with a good quality original print of the scene. it can clearly be made out that the first Halifax and lead aircraft is 9U-F, LL402, 644 Sqn.F/O Blake towing Horsa C/No.250B, glider pilots Capt.Murdoch / Sgt. Page. (these glider pilots were on Operation Tonga but cast off over Worthy Down, returned to TR and allocated a chalk for Mallard.) it can also be seen that the tugs nearest to the camera are a mixture of 298 and 644 Squadrons. minutae or nit-picking, does it matter ?
Ref your comments about the 2 horsa gliders, ( i mentioned this before) do you think they were 6th airborne? My father was in the devonshires and he took off about 7pm. he was in A company who were the only ones in the Devons to fly over to Normandy, i,m trying to get his glider number if that was possible. From the picture and other info i have, i was hoping he was in one of these 2 horsa,s. thanks for any help you can throw my way. Regards Jon.

 

Jon Black,

Can you forgive my insensitivity for not acknowledging the recent passing of your Father before now?

Private Harold H Black - RIP

Regards ...

 

Hello Jon,

I put a feeler out on your behalf and the ever resourceful Lindsay Aspin came back with the following information which I will quote directly:

Harold Black 14610179
'A' Coy. 12th Battalion - Devonshire Regiment - Operation Mallard

The second afternoon/early evening lift of Gliders did leave from Farringdon.

Jon Baker at Duxford was busy today, but one of his assistants checked the index held at ParaData and couldn't find Glider Raid Reports that would show Chalk Nos. of gliders that left from Farringdon on Operation Mallard. That's not to say of course that they are there or not!

However, Peter Cappon, Archivist MAF, has said that the Museum does hold records about Operation Mallard, possibly showing Chalk Nos. of the gliders who took part. Peter remembers only just recently reading information about Operation Mallard: he has suggested therefore that Jon Black get in touch with him direct via his personal e-mail address at the MAF as follows:

archivist@flying-museum.org.uk
or gives him a ring on 01264-784421

Hope the above might help towards the quest.

Best wishes,
Lindsay

I hope that helps somewhat or gives you other avenues to follow. Many thanks to Lindsay who has proven herself a godsend once again ...

Regards ...

 

Jon

I have checked my records and can help with the following Glider chalk numbers 132 to 146 (15 gliders) took 12th Devons to LZ 'R' and chalk Nos 147 to 152 took 12th Devons to LZ 'P'. The serial number was B11 and comprised of Stirlings which took off from Rivenhall at 0700. I beleive that the Glider Pilot's were from 'A' Sqdn.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ignore this for some strange reason I got confused and thought you were asking about the Devons on Op Varsity. I'll see what I can find for D Day

Arnhem

 

Hello arnhem 2280

I've just read about the help you have kindly given to Jon as above.

Amongst your records you don't ... "by some form of a miracle!" ... happen to have Glider Raid Reports covering Operation Varsity, serial B12, Chalk Nos. 153-167 x 15 gliders x LZ R - load carried HQ 6 Air Landing Brigade and left from Earls Colne. I'm still searching for confirmation that Brigadier R.H. Bellamy (HQ 6 A/L Bridage) was on board Glider Chalk No.153, and the names of the two Glider Pilots.

It's a 'chance question' I know. Hope you don't mind me asking, but I've been searching for these for years !!

Regards,
Lindsay

 

Jon

I have checked my records and can help with the following Glider chalk numbers 132 to 146 (15 gliders) took 12th Devons to LZ 'R' and chalk Nos 147 to 152 took 12th Devons to LZ 'P'. The serial number was B11 and comprised of Stirlings which took off from Rivenhall at 0700. I beleive that the Glider Pilot's were from 'A' Sqdn.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ignore this for some strange reason I got confused and thought you were asking about the Devons on Op Varsity. I'll see what I can find for D Day

Arnhem
Thanks for your help, Varsity is next! After the Ardennes ..

 

Jon

My condolences on the death of your father.

The Devons were a proud regiment and it a was a privilege to hear from, and read stories of, the men of the 12th Bn who landed across the Rhine.

Much has been written about Glider Raid Reports, but what you need are the manifests for the Devons' gliders. Now, it's possible that these are in the archives of the Devonshire and Dorset Regimental Museum; it's worth an email or phone call. Of course, it's also possible that manifests found their way into the Op Mallard archives at Middle Wallop; you have Peter Capon's email.

Hope this helps

Steve W.

 

here is a photos of the 12th Devons standing next to their glider

i presume it would be theirs and seeing the above post about Op Varsity Nos 153-167 i presume this photo is proir to D-Day, if it is a D-Day photo these would be members of A Company as they were the only ones to fly in, but i don't know any faces in the pic

 

Hi, reddevon

The photo's from Varsity; it's Chalk 133, which landed safely near Thetford when the rope broke.

Steve W.