RMS Scythia as part of Convoy WS.4 left LIverpool about Noon on 1 November 1940 with the MT for the 4th Durham Survey on board. Can anyone advise on which records could be found with details of the troops on this ship? We have personal papers of my father in law BQMS Hird of the 4th Durham Survey Regiment RA which record his appointment as Sgt I/C MT and movement of said MT to Newport in October then his embarkation on the Scythia (papers include - personal diary, letters home, photos during voyage and items such as boarding card and race night list of runners) So we know they were on this ship BUT have so far found no 'official' records. We are in contact with Massimo Magnilli Climpson (author of the Larkhill's Wartime Locators) and he has not seen any documents nor personal reports SO at present we seem to have the only evidence. Surely there is something to be found. The convoy WS.4 included three ships originating at Newport (Delius, Martand and Port Wyndham) which could have carried the MT .. Any suggestions on sources for details of their loads? Finally The King's Dragoon Guards were also on RMS Scythia .. does anyone have information on their movements? Robin
Hi Robin, had a quick look at the National Archives, could only find details for the return journey in 1941. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C9207284 Using the ships official number produced 60+ results. Could be something in there http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=%22143730%22&_sd=1939&_ed=1947 Try Lee's search engine (arcre.com) for the official war diaries for The King's Dragoon Guards Good luck with your search. Cheers - Maria
Convoy WS.4 From: LIVERPOOL Friday, 1 November 1940. To: DIVIDED INTO 4F & 4S Monday, 11 November 1940. Vessel Flag Tons Built Pdt. Cargo Notes ABOSSO Br 11,330 1935 AKAROA Br 15,130 1914 ALMANZORA Br 15,551 1914 BEAGLE ESCORT 02/11 - 03/11 BULLDOG ESCORT 02/11 - 03/11 CAIRO ESCORT 02/11 - 03/11 CITY OF AGRA Br 6,361 1936 CITY OF MANCHESTER Br 8,917 1935 CLAN CHATTAN Br 7,262 1937 CLAN LAMONT Br 7,250 1939 CORNWALL ESCORT 02/11 - 11/11 DELIUS Br 6,065 1937 DUCHESS OF RICHMOND Br 20,022 1928 DUNEDIN STAR GARLAND ESCORT 31/10 - 03/11 HARVESTER ESCORT 01/11 - 04/11 HESPERUS ESCORT 02/11 - 03/11 HIGHLAND MONARCH Br 14,139 1928 500 TROOPS HURRICANE ESCORT 01/11 - 03/11 MALANCHA Br 8,124 1937 MARTAND Br 7,967 1925 MELBOURNE STAR OTTAWA ESCORT 02/11 - 04/11 PORT WYNDHAM Br 11,005 1935 SAGUENAY ESCORT 02/11 - 04/11 SCYTHIA Br 19,761 1920 1634 TROOPS.WATERED AT CAPETOWN 29.11.40 SKEENA ESCORT 02/11 - 04/11 STIRLING CASTLE Br 25,550 1936 1600 TROOPS WARWICK CASTLE Br 20,107 1930 Convoy WS.4F From: FORMED AT SEA Monday, 11 November 1940. To: FREETOWN Thursday, 14 November 1940. Vessel Flag Tons Built Pdt. Cargo Notes CLAN CHATTAN Br 7,262 1937 52 CLAN LAMONT Br 7,250 1939 42 CORNWALL ESCORT 11/11 - 14/11 DUNEDIN STAR 51 HIGHLAND MONARCH Br 14,139 1928 22 PORT WYNDHAM Br 11,005 1935 32 STIRLING CASTLE Br 25,550 1936 31 WARWICK CASTLE Br 20,107 1930 21 Convoy WS.4S From: FORMED AT SEA Monday, 11 November 1940. To: FREETOWN Friday, 15 November 1940. Vessel Flag Tons Built Pdt. Cargo Notes ABOSSO Br 11,330 1935 ALMANZORA Br 15,551 1914 CITY OF MANCHESTER Br 8,917 1935 DELIUS Br 6,065 1937 MALANCHA Br 8,124 1937 MARTAND Br 7,967 1925 PRETORIA CASTLE ESCORT 11/11 - 15/11 From http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hague/index.html TD
For more details on these "Winston Specials" convoys to urgently reinforce the Egyptian garrison, see also http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-WSConvoys03-1940.htm
Yes a great resource based on the Hague archive. That is where we found details of the ships' origins and destinations. Also shows that the Reina Del Pacifico was in Convoy WS.4B which sailed later in November. This is the ship on which the rest of the 4th Durham sailed and the only one mentioned in their regimental history. R
Another very ueseful site .. this is where we saw that the two parts of the regiment sailed at different times. R
Hi Robin Just an off the wall thought - there may be some White Star line records somewhere, that may help answer your question - assuming they recorded information when she was a troop ship. Most references to RMS Scythia only seem to mention The King's Dragoon Guards being transported on this ship, having said that someone recorded this so you could assume they may have recorded other units. TD
In general you will not find details of trooping movements in MN records. Sometimes individual officers travelling as passengers will be noted in BT 26 held at Kew/Ancestry, but if you are looking for details of regiments etc don't look in MN records because they aint there. Regards Hugh
I totally agree with Hugh, I had the same experience when I was looking for troop listings for ships that formed part of WS 14.
Thanks Maria .. as always the ON for the ship is a great help .. looked her up on the Miramar index http://miramarshipindex.org.nz Not much but find every little helps Robin
Hi I had a similar problem with 13 RMT Coy sailing on convoy WS5B and after reading war diaries and convoy reports finally found the confirmation in the book - Winston Specials, troopships via the Cape by Archie Munro. I borrowed this from the local library for £5 and it held a lot of information as it covers each convoy from start to finish. I am sure someone may have a copy they can look at for you. Brian
Many thanks Brian. A surprise package arrived this morning as Robin has bought me a copy of the book without telling me. Looks like a gem! Plenty of detail about my father's trip on the Scythia. I now understand why he wrote a long letter to my grandparents from on board the ship detailing the luxurious food and accomodation on said vessel. The chapter notes also list the ADM refs at the National Archives. margaret
Margaret - just glad you are getting the information you require and the picture is coming together, and well done Robin. Good Luck with the rest. Brian
My wife's father then Sgt Hird C. E. was sargeant in charge of the Advance Party of the 4th Durham Survey Regiment RA TA which sailed on Scythia in covoy WS.4 from Liverpool on 1 November 1940. We have scanned and posted selections from his papers on the thread about his regiment at http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/1792-4th-durham-survey-regiment/page-2?p=613804 These documents show that the regiment's MT were taken to Newport in mid October and were probably loaded on Delius which was part of the same convoy. The specific ship is yet to be confirmed but looks the most likely of the three ships which sailed from Newport - Delius, Martand and Port Wyndham. Delius was a problem ship for the Commodore of the convoy and he is pretty blunt about it in his report (TNA Ref ADM199/1136). The convoy travelled much more slowly than planned and then Deliius went to Port Sudan before Suez. The Convoy WS.4 arrived in Suez on December 23 only a few days ahead of Convoy WS4.B which arrived on December 28 and carried the main parties of several regiments. Delius also arrived on December 28 so the 4th Durham Survey had to wait another week before their MT caught up with them. Robin
