database of Italian POWs?

Is there perhaps a database of Italian prisoners of war who were captured in Libya.

 

Is there perhaps a database of Italian prisoners of war who were captured in Libya.

Unfortunately not... Never heard of such a project.

 

Hi Shaun - job for life. Why not apply? You can put my father down for a start.
Regards
Cheryl

 

Hi Shaun - job for life. Why not apply? You can put my father down for a start.
Regards
Cheryl


It would be a giant work... Even for an Italian-speaking historian. For instance, the most part of archives and official sources were simply burnt after the Armistice or after the end of the German and Fascist occupation in Northern Italy. And unfortunately, while wasting with joy an enormous amount of money for silly things in the last years, this country never created a digitalised database for our soldiers - anything like the two Australian archives or the British archive at Kew.

 

Thanks for the job offer guys, but it sounds like momentous task. Just trying to put a name to that single Italian prisoner on those photographs I have is hard enough.

 

It would be a giant work... Even for an Italian-speaking historian. For instance, the most part of archives and official sources were simply burnt after the Armistice or after the end of the German and Fascist occupation in Northern Italy. And unfortunately, while wasting with joy an enormous amount of money for silly things in the last years, this country never created a digitalised database for our soldiers - anything like the two Australian archives or the British archive at Kew.
That is so tragic. I am eternally grateful for the information about my father which was sent on to me by the Int. Red Cross in Geneva, and the SA Defence Force Archives, also for the information via ww2talk - extracts from files at Kew. Without all this I would not have been able to visit the camp PG115/3 in Marsciano earlier this month, and fulfil the pledge I made to my father to return one day and thank the kind people there for their love and care during his internment. So sad for all those families who need answers. Thank God I was one of the lucky ones. You live in a lovely part of the world, we just loved it there.
Regards, Cheryl

 

Thanks indeed Cheryl. Yes, I applied too to the Red Cross Archives but, not being a next of kin, I had to afford an expense of about 90 Euro per each record... Quite hard for a common researcher, I mean, without a whole history deparment or faculty behind him (or her).

 

Marco,
Does it make sense contacting the ufficio storico SME on something like this ?
They have a lot of stuff and may have something useful, I was often pleasantly surprised at the quality of the Ufficio Storico della Marina pubblications.
But this sort of project should really have been done when the army had a practically bottomless amount of cheap manpower, now it's unlikely to happen unless some university gets behind it.

EDIT: on their site Esercito Italiano- Norme per la consultazione I found this

Le informazioni sul periodo passato in prigionia e notizie su caduti e dispersi possono essere richieste presso:

• MINISTERO DELLA DIFESA DIREZIONE GENERALE DELLE PENSIONI MILITARI, DEL COLLOCAMENTEO AL LAVORO DEI VOLONTARI CONGEDATI E DELLA LEVA
  7^ Divisione - Stato Civile e Albo d'Oro
  Via Sforza, 4/b
  00184, ROMA

For non Italian speakers it's a contact for getting information on KIA, MIA and POWs so something does exist, though it's apparently meant for pensions, can't believe they don't have a database behind that.

 

Marco,
Does it make sense contacting the ufficio storico SME on something like this ?
They have a lot of stuff and may have something useful, I was often pleasantly surprised at the quality of the Ufficio Storico della Marina pubblications.
But this sort of project should really have been done when the army had a practically bottomless amount of cheap manpower, now it's unlikely to happen unless some university gets behind it.

EDIT: on their site Esercito Italiano- Norme per la consultazione I found this

Le informazioni sul periodo passato in prigionia e notizie su caduti e dispersi possono essere richieste presso:

• MINISTERO DELLA DIFESA DIREZIONE GENERALE DELLE PENSIONI MILITARI, DEL COLLOCAMENTEO AL LAVORO DEI VOLONTARI CONGEDATI E DELLA LEVA
  7^ Divisione - Stato Civile e Albo d'Oro
  Via Sforza, 4/b
  00184, ROMA

For non Italian speakers it's a contact for getting information on KIA, MIA and POWs so something does exist, though it's apparently meant for pensions, can't believe they don't have a database behind that.


Hello TiredOldSoldier,

Surely they have databases for all our soldiers, sailors and so on. For instance I read several excellent, recent publications, by senior historians, concerning our Navy files - one of them was Giorgio Giorgerini and he traced back almost all the fate of our very large submarine fleet. Of course they prefer to allow the researches signed by well known historians, Italian or not, more than by common researchers like me.

I already suggested to a foreign friend to write at this same address, and I translated him the letter in Italian, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding. We agreed that, when she will receive a reply, she will scan and send it to me by e-mail. Then I will translate the reply, too.
If you want I may try to help you in this way, too.

There is an online database for Italian victims of war, as explained here,

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prisoners-war/34561-database-italian-war-victims-pow-victims.html

The current direct link is the following:

Ministero della Difesa - Ricerca sepolture

It was conceived to trace the graves and cemeteries of single fallen soldiers, it doesn't work as the Australian archives, providing full information about the victim. It is more close to the CWGC online files.
And of course, since we are in Italy!, the whole stuff is only in Italian..

Marco

 

Hi Marco

I'm familiar with Giorgerini's works, though on the specific subject of Italian subs it's hard to do better than the guys at the Betasom site Betasom - XI Gruppo Sommergibili Atlantici.

What I was thinking was getting some interest from the ufficio storico on putting more stuff on line, the database you linked seems to be only on KIA so not likely to help on a search for POWs.

BTW I can try to vist them to try to get info if somebody needs that, their library is only few minutes from where I live, but if would need to know where to start my search, my only direct experience with an "ufficio storico" was with the navy's one during an open day at the ministry and was not very good, they do tend to "snob" researchers with no accademic backing, though I grab their often excellent pubblications every time I find one at a used book store.

Giuseppe

 

Hi Marco

I'm familiar with Giorgerini's works, though on the specific subject of Italian subs it's hard to do better than the guys at the Betasom site Betasom - XI Gruppo Sommergibili Atlantici.

What I was thinking was getting some interest from the ufficio storico on putting more stuff on line, the database you linked seems to be only on KIA so not likely to help on a search for POWs.

BTW I can try to vist them to try to get info if somebody needs that, their library is only few minutes from where I live, but if would need to know where to start my search, my only direct experience with an "ufficio storico" was with the navy's one during an open day at the ministry and was not very good, they do tend to "snob" researchers with no accademic backing, though I grab their often excellent pubblications every time I find one at a used book store.

Giuseppe

Hello Giuseppe,

I apologize, I didn't realize that you are Italian like me, too!

In effect this was my same impressione - if you're not backed and fully endorsed by a Faculty or at least history department, you are obliged to face giant limitations and difficulties... A maximum number of photocopies for each search session...

I think that, due to the actual crisis status and to the financial cuts to our Armed Forces, a real digitalised archive (as you suggest) won't appear in the near future. And this would be very sad since the great engagements we faced during last war.

 

Not able to provide much help in this regard as of yet, I am however in the process of having the Italian and Japanese POW lists transcribed.
I'm shooting to have this project complete by the end of the year. There are almost 150,000 records to transcribe so it is taking some time however I believe they are nearing the 40% complete mark.

Once transcribed I will be loading them into a searchable database on my website. Unfortunately the initial data will only be what is on the lists.
For the Italians that will be Name, rank, camp, Regiment, and which country they served for.
Japanese lists will have name, rank, service number, branch of service, camp, date of capture, date of liberation, and any comments.

Once the initial data is up and available, adding to it would be a relatively simple matter, if of course one has the data in the correct format. Adding one off records and additions is simple.

The data will be available for free on my site once complete, so if anyone wants to kick in extra information, or contribute in any other way please feel free to jump in

Cheers,
Wayne

 

Not able to provide much help in this regard as of yet, I am however in the process of having the Italian and Japanese POW lists transcribed.
I'm shooting to have this project complete by the end of the year. There are almost 150,000 records to transcribe so it is taking some time however I believe they are nearing the 40% complete mark.

Once transcribed I will be loading them into a searchable database on my website. Unfortunately the initial data will only be what is on the lists.
For the Italians that will be Name, rank, camp, Regiment, and which country they served for.
Japanese lists will have name, rank, service number, branch of service, camp, date of capture, date of liberation, and any comments.

Once the initial data is up and available, adding to it would be a relatively simple matter, if of course one has the data in the correct format. Adding one off records and additions is simple.

The data will be available for free on my site once complete, so if anyone wants to kick in extra information, or contribute in any other way please feel free to jump in

Cheers,
Wayne


Hello Wayne,

This is a great news... Chapeau! Thanks indeed for sharing and I really wish you good luck for this noble aim.

Marco

 

Hi Wayne.
I echo Marco's thoughts as I am interested in Val Camonica,Plemo, Camp PG62/51 where I have only four names so far.
The list that ''Bamboo'' has although good stepping stone it does not show the final camp of the four prisoners above and these were obtained from Escape and Evasion reports.
Is this the source that you are using?

 

I have compiled two Excel's over the last 5/6 years, Chindit 1 personnel and POW's of Rangoon Jail. Both are only 2500 and 1200 names respectively, so I am in awe at your worthy undertaking Wayne.

 

Hi Trevor, I have the Italian and Japanese POW lists from KEW. WO392/21/22/23/24/25/26. They are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, searching this site will enlighten you regarding the issues regarding all POW lists (soldiers in 2 camps, wrong numbers, ranks, list in camps they never weere in etc) but they are what we have.

See http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prisoners-war/37941-prisoner-war-lists-3.html by Brian (Adm199) on the issues he has uncovered.

The actual images of the lists can be viewed on my site under POW's Japan and Italy. When the image is open you can click the little green arrow at the bottom to enlarge it if you have trouble reading it.

| Powvets

Cheers,
Wayne

Hi Wayne.
I echo Marco's thoughts as I am interested in Val Camonica,Plemo, Camp PG62/51 where I have only four names so far.
The list that ''Bamboo'' has although good stepping stone it does not show the final camp of the four prisoners above and these were obtained from Escape and Evasion reports.
Is this the source that you are using?

 

Thanks Marco

Not much of a noble aim though, I just have to pay them when they are done

Cheers,
Wayne

Hello Wayne,

This is a great news... Chapeau! Thanks indeed for sharing and I really wish you good luck for this noble aim.

Marco

 

Is there perhaps a database of Italian prisoners of war who were captured in Libya.

Are you looking for Italians captured by the Allies, or Allies captured by the Italians?

I know of partial North Africa listings of Italians captured by the Allies in Central/South Tunisia (in the US National Archives - College Park - I can send the catalog info if interested) - I even have digital photos of some of the listings from April 1943. You may find capture listings for other North African locales in the same place.

I also know of a large listing of ALL captured Italian POWs in the US as of March 31 1945 (Kathy Kirkpatrick at gentracer.com will sell you digitized versions of the list, if you're interested), and I have some code keys which *may* help to decode the various numbers on the list to determine capture locale, although it may only go so far as North African vs. Mediterranean Theatre, not country specific. Decoding this list is on my list for future research puzzling, but I haven't done it as of yet.

SO not databases, but the sources for ones for the future.

 

Thanks indeed Anna, this would be beautiful.

 

Thanks indeed Anna, this would be beautiful.

Hi Marco,
I'm on deadline until the end of the week w/ a dissertation chapter, but will post the National Archives info (and maybe a photo example of Tunisia capture date files, if I can figure out attachments) once I'm done.

As for the 1945 Italian POWs in the US list, you can find an example of it at Italian Prisoners of War in the continental USA on 31 March 1945, NARA RG 389, Entry 464A, Box 1505 and purchase the whole list there as well (I bought a copy myself).

I can't remember off the top of my head if this list includes so-called Italian Service Units (ISUs - ~2/3 of Italian POWs in the US in 1945) and the non-cooperating Italian POWs, or just the ISUs - I'll look it up later.

I came across a few code listings and other info which might explain some of the #s on the 1945 list. For example, from my dissertation research on Boston ISUs, I know the codes to identify camps in Massachusetts from looking up the few camp prisoner names I have; if I remember correctly, the letters/#s at the start of the POW# relate to capture locale. Finding the code documents in my research pile, however, will take a little longer, so more on that later!

Last two random trivia things - were you the one looking up Italian POWs in foreign cemeteries? Two were buried outside Boston at Fort Devens (Ayer, MA), if you want the info (name, birth/death dates & death cause; one had an inquest/investigation so papers on that, too). Also, to complicate matters, note that there were some Italian POWs in the US who were designated as German POWs because they were captured with German troops - e.g., there was an Italian soldier at Fort Devens who had been "lent" to Rommel as his driver. He spoke no German (only Italian), but the US declined to ever move him to an Italian camp due to when/where/with whom he was captured.

Cheers!
Anne Marie