Defence Medal qualification?

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Wobbler, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    Firstly, I must say I’m most impressed with the efficiency the Medal Office have shown with my recent requests for three relatives’ WW2 entitlements. I sent three forms together on Monday 14 June and received two of the three entitlement records yesterday, 21 June. The two received are for my uncle and cousin, both Army. The third record is yet to arrive, for my cousin William who served in the Royal Navy, so perhaps the Navy medal record may take a tad longer.

    My query is this. I am not his next of kin as far as I am aware anyway, but I am puzzled that my cousin, 6099827 L/Cpl George Gatty, KIA with The Buffs at Argenta Gap in April ‘45, does not appear to have been entitled to the Defence Medal, but I confess to finding the whole criteria for the DM to be somewhat confusing. He was entitled “only” to the Africa, Italy and 39/45 Stars and the War Medal apparently.

    Unfortunately I do not have George’s service records, I know only from his recruitment roll that he joined the Queen’s Royal (West Surrey) Regiment on 17 July 1940 and I assume that must have been 14th Battalion (Home Defence), since he was transferred to 99th LAA on 1 December, 1941. Would this period with the 14th, therefore, not have qualified him for the Defence Medal?

    As I say, I am only assuming he was with the 14th Battalion because of his obvious connection to the 99th LAA when it formed on 1 December 1941, and I reiterate that the Defence Medal criteria confuses my poor addled brain.

    I have discussed George, and received much help from you lovely people, previously here:

    6099827 L/Cpl George James GATTY, 1st Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment): KIA 13 April 1945
     
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Medals: campaigns, descriptions and eligibility

    The Defence Medal is awarded for non-operational service such as those service personnel working in headquarters, on training bases and airfields and members of the Home Guard. The medal is also awarded for non-operational service overseas for example in India or South Africa.
    To apply for the Defence Medal, you must have either:
    1080 days (3 years) service in the UK between 3 Sep 1939 and 8 May 1945
    1080 days (3 years) service in the Home Guard between 14 May 1940 and 31 Dec 1944 (you will also need to fill out and send the Home Guard service questionnaire)
    360 days (1 year) non operational service overseas between 3 Sep 1939 and 2 Sep 1945
    180 days non operational service in an overseas area deemed to be closely threatened or subject to air attack between 3 September 1939 and 8 May 1945
    The colours of the ribbon symbolise enemy attacks on Britain’s ‘green and pleasant land’ and the black out.

    Basically it was for those who didnt go overseas except for non-operational service overseas for example in India or South Africa.

    TD

    I would guess he wasnt awarded a Defence Medal as he was in operational service areas overseas - Africa, Italy which also lead him to be awarded the 39/45 Star

    The 1939 to 1945 Star is awarded to personnel who completed operational service overseas between 3 September 1939 and 8 May 1945 (2 Sept 1945 in Far East).
    To apply for the 1939 to 1945 Star, you must have:
    180 days operational service in the army in the above qualifying areas
    180 days operational service as ground crew in the RAF in the above qualifying areas
    60 days operational service as aircrew in the RAF in the above qualifying areas
    180 days service afloat in operational areas in the Royal Navy in the above qualifying areas
     
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  3. Richelieu

    Richelieu Well-Known Member

    This link provides a good summary Wobbler.

    As TD says, the Defence Medal was for service in threatened rather than active theatres, so those serving in operational areas overseas for any length of time often did not acquire the necessary qualifying service - that service may however be reflected in their campaign stars.

    British Battles and Medals provides the following exceptions from the basic rules:

    The qualifying period of service in Mine and Bomb Disposal Units was three months.

    Service curtailed by death due to enemy action or service wounds was considered eligible.

    Those who received a personal award conferred by the King were also eligible irrespective of their length of service providing they were serving in a category that qualified for the medal.

    Recipients of the George Cross, or George Medal, were eligible for the Defence Medal whether they were serving in a category eligible for the medal or not, providing that the decorations were gained for service in Civil Defence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
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  4. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Having spent a lot of time looking at Scots Guards service records on FMP recently I have noted all 2nd SG men serving in Egypt on the outbreak of war were awarded the Defence Medal.

    I suspect servicemen in Egypt Sept 1939/June 1940 would have been eligible under the criteria of -

    “180 days non operational service in an overseas area deemed to be closely threatened or subject to air attack between 3 September 1939 and 8 May 1945”

    Any 6 month period of service in Egypt 3rd Sept 1939 until the Italian declaration of war 10th June 1940 would suffice as Egypt wasn’t an operational theatre of war until Italy declared war.

    I’m not aware of any German air attacks in Egypt during that time but presume there was an increasing threat the closer personnel were to the Mediterranean coast or the Suez Canal.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
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  5. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    Cheers TD. I presume, therefore, that his Home Defence service with the Queen’s would have had to be three years in duration for him to have qualified, which it must not have been, of course.

    I did note the exception quoted by Richelieu’s, namely

    “Service curtailed by death due to enemy action or service wounds was considered eligible”

    However, would I be correct in assuming that this again only applied to those covered under the normal criteria for the medal, as opposed to a soldier killed in action?

    Interestingly, my Grandfather was awarded the Defence Medal, as well as the Africa, Italy, F&G and 39/45 Stars, but I presume this was because of his accrued time spent in India, Iraq, Syria and Palestine. I attach copies of his service records.

    039C01A1-E250-49E4-B764-135BD1700822.jpeg 0E721AC1-DC02-4F93-AE54-FE6362CBDDF9.jpeg 37BA5A34-2735-47D7-893F-6866D68C0871.jpeg 4400CEFC-1B42-4D0A-B254-39B5D1778EE4.jpeg F60164C4-4030-4C9B-A046-318EF049738A.jpeg

    The second medal record I just received was my uncle’s and he too qualified for the Defence Medal as well as the War Medal, Italy and 39/45 Stars but I do not yet have his service records either so have no idea as to why he did earn the Defence Medal. All I do know so far of his service is that he joined the RA on 10 September 1942 and served as a Gunner until he transferred to the Military Police in September 1945.
     
  6. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that link, which, as I said to TD, also leads me to believe that any Home Defence service George performed was simply not long enough to qualify and he went straight into operational areas thereafter.

    He was, of course, killed by enemy action but I can only interpret that because this was as a soldier in an operational area, the Defence Medal criteria must not apply.
     
  7. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    Thanks Steve. From what you say, and from the information and links provided by TD and Richelieu, I can only assume that the time spent by my Grandfather in Iraq, Syria, Palestine and India with 5th Infantry Division was what qualified him for the Defence Medal.

    All in all, though, Defence Medal eligibility seems one of the more difficult to understand (to a dumbo like me, anyway ;))
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I have always been impressed with the service provided by the Medal Office, and would go further in that whatever they say regarding which medals someone will be or has been awarded is dome with meticulous care and consideration, and what they say as being correct is correct
    Its why in scenarios like this I would obviously always defer to them for a final answer

    TD
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The Defence Medal is a strange one, and oddly, not holding it can often indicate more overseas service...It seems to have been introduced as a compensation for those who weren't going to be awarded any campaign stars.

    My dad's was granted primarily for his pre-enlistment service as a Police Messenger. If he'd been posted overseas sooner, then he probably wouldn't have been eligible.
     
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  10. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    First time I’ve ever written to them, TD, and the first impression is a very good one, especially given this past year. They even told me they’d been issued and when, which was jolly decent of them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  11. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    A strange one, indeed, Rich and my brain hurt just reading through the criteria, although, thanks to the ever helpful members here, I now understand why cousin George probably did not receive it.

    Grandad received four campaign stars and the Defence Medal and, as I said before, I can only guess that the time he spent with 5th Division in India, Iraq, Syria and Palestine was “non-operational” and ultimately what qualified him for the DM. Clearly he spent time in the UK after getting back from Dunkirk but, like George, that would not have been for the three year period I now understand was required to qualify.
     
  12. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    FTR, TD, this is a direct link to the DM section - the page containing more # signposts than are apparently used. The contents list, at the top of such an overlong page, really ought to be comprehensive enough to itemise such individual award headings for improved accessibility - but then try telling that to today's web cretins !

    I can also see Wobbler's problem in that it seems to have become more complicated since I last looked for my dad back in 2007/8. Either that or I'm losing my marbles. Suffice it to say, for now, that Glasgow circumstantially failed to fully account for all my dad's HG service - an impasse only resolved by his having kept the King's letter of thanks stating the full amount.
     
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  13. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    WiKi is quite good on the Defence Medal particularly for listing the non-operational areas subject to air attack.
    Defence Medal (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

    Always find this an oddly named medal as my Dad, who spent two years in a LAA Regt actually firing their guns during the BoB and the Blitz and therefore actively defending the UK before going overseas, never got one but someone sitting in an office for three years did.

    Tim
     
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  14. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    Indeed, Tim.
     
  15. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    "They also serve, who only stand and wait" (John Milton) has long been accepted as true so please spare us 'sour grapes' gripes. Actually, according to this 12 Jul 1944 War Cabinet report from TNA, the DM seems to have been originally conceived as a CDM to mainly reward voluntary CD service - ref. p180 (PDF p5) stating;
    (g) The Prime Minister suggested that the Home Secretary and Minister of Home Security might consider the possibility of awarding a civil defence medal to Civil Defence personnel who had volunteered for service in any part of the country.

    another Steve
     
  16. Wobbler

    Wobbler Well-Known Member

    That’s very interesting to learn.
     
  17. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Steve - my comment wasn't meant as 'sour grapes' but merely to show the oddity of calling it the Defence Medal. Since you have now explained that originally it was to be a Civil Defence Medal it makes more sense.

    Tim
     
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  18. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    If it's any compensation, basically yours for a mere fiver Tim,
    Defence Medal Miniature Replica - The National Archives Shop.
    (P&P presumably extra)

    But, back on topic, I've found & attached the eligibility criteria as I e-printed them on 5 Aug 2007 - definitely much clearer to me than now, despite no apparent change to the basic blurb, and I reckon that all boils down to presentation as I find the earlier tabular format easier to absorb. Or, to borrow Frank Carson's catchphrase, "It's the way I tell 'em !"
     

    Attached Files:

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