DEMS gunner losses

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by Steve49, Jul 5, 2021.

  1. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Sunday 19th April 1942

    JONES, David S, Gunner, RA (6/3 Maritime Regt), 3969596, killed [ChM]

    Gnr Jones was lost on this day. The only shipping loss on the date is the interception of S.S. Patella by the German raider Michel. Three crew were killed (plus another three who later died whilst 'guests' of the Japanese), so was he also killed in this sinking? Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  2. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Yes, he was a casualty of that sinking.

    JONES, Gunner, DAVID SAMUEL, 3969596, 6/3 Maritime Regt., Royal Artillery. (SS Patella) 19 April 1942. Age 28. Son of James and Hannah Jane Jones. 67, 2.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  3. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Thursday 30th April 1942

    COPPING, Maurice, Lance Bombardier, RA (3/2 Maritime Regt), 4348920, killed [PoM]
    NASON, John W, Gunner, RA (3/2 Maritime Regt), 4766332, killed [PoM]

    Two gunners lost on this day, no obvious loss to associate with them. The Norwegian Taborfjell was lost on this date, it is recorded as losing 17 crew from 20 onboard. Could these gunners also have been onboard? Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  4. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,
    I can account for all 20 on board TABORFJELL so not that ship. I am just double checking sources at the moment will get back to this one shortly.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  5. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,
    Both Army DEMS gunners were lost in the sinking of the Norwegian ss CHRISTIAN KNUDSEN which was torpedoed on 10 April 1942. Their dates of death are shown as 30 April 1942, so this required some extra research on my part. The ship left New York on 8 April 1942 and shortly afterwards on the 10 April was assumed to have been torpedoed and sunk by U-85 with the loss of all hands. U-85 did not survive her voyage either having been sunk herself a few days later on 14 April 1942 - no survivors. All the sources I have seen list only 33 crew, 5 of whom were British and the rest were mainly Norwegian and some others. Clearly this is incorrect and how they came by the date of death for the gunners as opposed to those of the seamen - who knows.
    I managed to confirm that both gunners joined CHR KNUDSEN on 26 February 1942 in Middlesborough - see the attached passenger manifest that was taken by the US authorities.
    It is unfortunate that so many of the gunners are not shown on many of those resources which are now repeated online. Unfortunately finding the gunners means going through many different records.
    You will also note the names are spelt incorrectly.

    knudsen.png

    From my own database


    COPPING, Lance Bombardier, MAURICE, 4348920, 3/2 Maritime Regt., Royal Artillery. (SS Christian Knudsen) 30 April 1942. Age 23. Son of Arthur E. Copping, and of Eva Copping, of Coniston, Yorkshire. Panel 72, Column 1.
    NASON, Gunner, JOHN WILLIAM, 4755332, 3/2 Maritime Regt., Royal Artillery. (SS Christian Knudsen) 30 April 1942. Age 28. Panel 72, Column 2.

    Checking the crew manifest - 34 crew including both gunners arrived at New York. 1 seaman signed off [lucky] and 2 seamen signed on [unlucky]. So the total complement lost on CHR KNUDSEN was 35 not 33 as reported in other sources.



    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2022
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  6. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Thanks for that. Yes I have the 5 UK MN losses associated with the Christian Knudsen. I see their deaths are listed on the 12th April, which seems to tie in the date given in Lloyd's for the ships sinking, but as you say the sinking is credited to U85 on the 10th April.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  7. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Friday 1st May 1942

    HOWELL, Herbert E, Gunner, RA (1/1 Maritime Regt), 5256036, killed [PoM]

    Various shipping losses on the 1st May, but all of them appear to have resulted in no deaths. So no obvious ship to associate with Gnr Howell. Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  8. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    RA Casualty Card for Howell has 'Drowned. Not due to enemy action. Body not recovered.'

    Tim
     
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  9. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    HOWELL, Gunner, HERBERT EDWARD, 5256036, 1/1 Maritime Regt., Royal Artillery. (SS Clan Macneil) 1 May 1942. Age 22. Son of Herbert and Lilian C. Howell, of South Yardley, Birmingham. Panel 71, Column 3. (Fell overboard and drowned)

    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  10. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Saturday 2nd May 1942

    STEWART, Alexander, Gunner, RA (2/1 Maritime Regt), 1551895, killed

    Gnr Stewart killed on this date. I believe he was lost on S.S. Botavon, which is listed by Lloyd's as being sunk with 20 crew and 1 gunner. Any ideas?

    Sadly CWGC only list 2 OR MN deaths with this sinking, so I presume the other 18 MN losses have the misfortune of not being recorded on a memorial and so are lost to history.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  11. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Doesn't help with Gnr Stewart but see https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?31926
    This shows 21 dead from SS Botavon but most are listed with date of death as 14 May 42. At the moment I can only assume that they were rescued from the Botavon and that the rescue ship was subsequently sunk.

    Tim
     
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  12. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Tim,

    Cheers for that, should have searched better!

    Yes another 18 deaths on 14th and one on the 15th. No rescue ship loss on those dates, but HMS Trinidad was lost on the 14th, so could they have been onboard the cruiser or is it just a case of the dates getting mixed up over time?

    Regards

    Steve
     
  13. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Gnr Alexander Stewart was not a member of the gun crew of ss BOTAVON.
    From my database.

    STEWART, Gunner, ALEXANDER, 1551895, 2/1 Maritime Regt., Royal Artillery. (SS Lancaster Castle) 2 May 1942. Age 27. Son of Alexander and Euphemia Cornfoot Stewart, of Kirkcaldy, Fife. Panel 72, Column 1

    The British steamship Lancaster Castle had arrived at Murmansk on 4 February 1942 with PQ 12 but while waiting to load cargo for home was bombed and damaged by German aircraft on 24 March 1942 when alongside at Murmansk. The ship was immobilized and loading was suspended and she was moved to a quiet anchorage a mile upstream from the wharves. On 14 April 1942 the ship was again attacked by German aircraft and sunk.
    Captain Sloan of LANCASTER CASTLE was embarked aboard the British warship HMS FORESIGHT and was killed and one other officer and two ratings of his crew wounded when the ship was engaged in battle with German forces. I would suggest that Gnr Stewart was also aboard HMS FORESIGHT and died along with the Master.

    Captain Smith of ss BOTAVON states in his report that 40 of his men were sent for passage home on HMS TRINIDAD and 21 lost their lives in the action in which the ship was lost.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  14. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Safely back from three weeks bouncing around in the Irish Sea on a 19m survey boat, so back to working through my list of DEMS gunner losses.

    Tuesday 2nd June 1942

    REDIT, George E, Lance Bombardier, RA (1/1 Maritime Regt), 1615508 [KHARTOUM WAR CEMETERY]

    No obvious shipping incident and a shore burial, so probably a non-hostile cause of death, any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  15. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Friday 5th June 1942

    EVANS, Hector R, Lance Bombardier, RA (2/1 Maritime Regt), 5497942, killed [PoM]

    ROBERTSON, John R, Bombardier, RA (4 Maritime Regt), 1552114, [NEWTON-LE-WILLOWS CEMETERY]

    ROACH, William, Gunner, RA (4/2 Maritime Regt), 3853979 [CHORLEY CEMETERY]

    Multiple losses on the 5th June. Passenger ship Elysia was sunk by Japanese raiders, so maybe there was a gunner loss (L/Bdr Evans?) to go along with 3 Officers and 19 OR crew and 4 passengers killed.

    The other deaths both have UK burials, which would indicate losses in UK waters and with no apparent shipping losses/incidents in this area on this date, I believe their deaths were due to non-hostile causes. Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  16. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    At Port Sudan.
    RA Casualty Card says 'Died as a result of knife wounds inflicted by member of crew of SS Gausdal'.
    Interesting.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  17. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    upload_2022-8-28_11-1-10.png

    Tim
     
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  18. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Thanks for that. What a tragic pointless way to die during wartime...

    Steve
     
  19. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,
    EVANS, Lance Bombardier, HECTOR RONALD, 5497942, 2/1 Maritime Regt., Royal Artillery. (SS Elysia) 5 June 1942. Age 27. Son of Edward and Emily Evans; husband of Ivy Evans, of Sparkhill, Birmingham. Panel 71, Column 3.

    Also agree with Tim's post above re George Redit - died of a knife wound aboard the Norwegian GAUSDAL.

    For the other two gunners, Robertson and Roach both stated as 'died' which I suggest would be natural causes.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  20. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Saturday 6th June 1942

    MEADOWS, Ernest C, Gunner, RA (7/4 Maritime Regt), 1541360 [BALTIMORE (LORRAINE PARK) CEMETERY]

    Buried in the USA and no obvious shipping incident, so I presume a non-hostile cause of death. Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     

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