DEMS gunner losses

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by Steve49, Jul 5, 2021.

  1. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Saturday 12th July 1941

    WATCHORN, Richard, Gunner, RA (4 Maritime Regt), 3453213, killed [PlyM]

    No obvious shipping loss/event to associate with Gnr Watchorn, so presumably a non-hostile loss. Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  2. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,

    WATCHORN, Gunner, RICHARD, 3453213, 4 Maritime Regt., Royal Artillery. 12 July 1941. Age 23. Son of John Thomas Watchorn and Emma Watchorn, of Blackhill, Co. Durham. Panel 62, Column 3.

    Died from bronco pneumonia at sea aboard the British India Steam Navigation Co. ss MODASA. The ship appears to have been on passage, Freetown - Liverpool in convoy SL.80 at the time.

    Regards
    Hugh



     
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  3. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    4th August 1941

    BATTY, James, Gunner, RA (4 Maritime Regt), 1564871, killed
    CULLEN, John T, Gunner, RA (7/4 Maritime Regt), 1566825, killed
    DAVEY, Sidney A, Gunner, RA (4 Maritime Regt), 1565138, killed
    GODLEY, John A, Gunner, RA (4 Maritime Regt), 2032771, killed
    PERKINS, Albert T, Gunner, RA (7/4 Maritime Regt), 1564922, killed

    I believe the above five men were lost with the sinking of S.S. Tunisia.

    Lloyd's says 43 crew, 38 missing. CWGC lists 31 Merchant Navy losses, plus 1 OR RN and 1 OR SANF gunners. I believe the above gunners are the remaining losses. Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  4. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,
    I can confirm that all five were, as you believed, killed while aboard ss TUNISIA.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  5. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Unfortunately the Algarve crew list in BT381/1696 contains just 26 crew and has no mention of either Cpl Cotton or Pte Higham.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  6. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Unfortunately BT381/1323 lists no gunners. Reference the E-Boat clash there is a note mentioning 'various damage in way of the superstructure around the bridge at 02:45 on 18th. The crew list records one sailor (AB J. 'Lockhart' [difficult to read]) being wounded whilst acting as a gunner, but mentions no other casualties.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  7. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Success with Empire Endurance. BT381/1624 lists both Charles Buckley and James G. Knowles as being onboard the ship. It also lists another seven service personnel; Tucker, Amer, Annison, Bell, Becker [ish, difficult to read], Bingham and Powell.

    TUCKER, Fred J S, Ty/Skipper, RNR was the killed passenger, I presume the remaining six were the two surviving gunners and the four RN passengers.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  8. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Unfortunately BT381/1582 has no mention of Pte Still.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945
    Name: Roy Still
    Given Initials: R S
    Rank: Private
    Death Date: 6 Jun 1941
    Number: 5889122
    Birth Place: Cambridgeshire
    Residence: Cambridgeshire
    Branch at Enlistment: Infantry
    Theatre of War: At sea
    Regiment at Death: Northamptonshire Regiment
    Branch at Death: Infantry


    UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947
    Name: Roy Sidney Still
    Gender: Male
    Age: 24
    Birth Date: abt 1917
    Death Date: 6 Jun 1941
    Cemetery: Naval Memorials In The United Kingdom Plymouth IX
    Burial Country: England
    Regimental Number: 5889122
    Region or Memorial: Memorial Register


    Royal Navy killed and died in World War 2, by Name - Spillett to Szymalski
    STILL, Roy S, Private, Army, 5889122, DEMS, Northamptonshire Regt, 6 June 1941, killed
     
  10. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Thanks TD,

    Unfortunately have so far been able to confirm which ship he was lost on. All the evidence would point towards it being Queensbury, but have yet to find the final piece to confirm this.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?62847

    States - 11 people lost their lives.

    But then they only list 9 crew, so perhaps the missing 2 are the DEMS gunners, but maybe they also know who the missing 2 are, ?worth a contact?



    Might be something in here - Hope, George Ernest (Oral history)
    Object description
    British radio officer served with Merchant Navy aboard SS Queensbury in GB coastal waters and Atlantic, 1940-1941 including sinking 6/6/1941
     
  12. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Thanks TD,

    In fact ten crew were lost and are listed by CWGC. The eleven casualty is almost certainly a DEMS gunner, but it has so far proved impossible to confirm that it was Pte Still.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  13. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,
    Thanks for getting back with your recent search of TNA - a mixed bag but at least we had a positive on EMPIRE ENDURANCE.

    Having recently obtained Lloyd's War Losses V2, we have another contender for the 19 February 1941.
    mv KARANAN [Dutch] coaster damaged by German air attack 6 miles SW of Lizard. The ship's engines were disabled and she had to be towed to Falmouth by the Norwegian d/s SVINT.
    KARANAN carried 3 gunners, 2 of whom according to Lloyd's, were killed in the attack along with a merchant seaman.

    I reckon Cpl Cotton and Pte Higham [Duke of Wellington Regt] were killed on ALGARVE and Pte Lucas and Pte Mansfield [Queen's Royal Regt] were probably aboard KARANAN.
    Again, it is just a guess which I really try not to do but it is one we can try and work on.

    By the way, if you need the references for any British crew agreements when you visit TNA especially for the unaccounted DEMS then feel free to ask on here if you are not sure. Also, sometimes within the file there are signals or notes about people joining and leaving and can easily be missed. Foreign ships are more difficult of course.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  14. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    No problem, happy to share with a likeminded researcher.

    Thanks for the information on Karanan. Yes it involves some educated speculation, but certainly something to work on regarding the status of the 19th February 1941 gunner losses. Though confusingly CAB66/15 records that the Dutch coaster sustained no casualties!

    Regard,

    Steve
     
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  15. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Working through a casualty list contained in WO166/3387 (HQ Maritime AA Regt) and notice I've overlooked a casualty.

    THORPE, Kenneth, Sergeant, 4530334 (2/5th West Yorkshire Regt), Killed [BM]

    Listed as killed on 8th November and remembered on Brookwood Memorial. Several ships damaged by aircraft on this date, any ideas which one Sgt Thorpe was onboard?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  16. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Still no closer to confirming a ship for Gnr's Carson and Stronach, but I see that they are both listed in a table of Maritime gunners killed by 'enemy action' contained in Maritime Regiment document WO166/3387.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  17. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Thanks Steve
    Thoughts only at this stage - the two Norwegian ships NYLAND and SKRIM.
    NYLAND was lost to poor weather with all hands. No gunners shown as part of crew on main online sources.
    SKRIM was torpedoed lost with all hands - online sources suggest no gunners aboard. U-boat states 23 crew but only 21 listed as lost.
    Hopefully one day we will find out.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  18. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...


    Hi Hugh,

    Thanks for that. I was initially drawn towards Nyland, but the fact the gunners are listed as 'lost due to enemy action', would seem to rule that ship out. As you say hopefully more information will become available to identify the ship the two gunners were on, though Skrim would seem to be the direction in which to look.

    Regarding the Maritime Regiment diary (WO166/3387) it list as casualties a number of soldiers I'd not picked up before. One being

    THORPE, Kenneth, Sergeant, 4530334 (2/5th West Yorkshire Regt)

    He's listed as killed on 8th November and remembered on Brookwood Memorial. Several ships were damaged by aircraft on this date, due you have any idea which one Sgt Thorpe was onboard?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  19. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,
    Sorry I missed replying the first time :) I was struggling with Kenneth Thorpe as he was not listed in my files and consequently I have been searching for him.
    After a long night, I have found the proof that he was lost on the Dutch AGAMEMNON see the following link: ss Agamemnon and Captain Douwe Sparrius

    Looking at the telegram it suggests his body was landed at Southend on Sea so consequently there may be a burial record for him. Maybe one for chrisharley9

    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  20. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Thanks as always. I see the Dutch M/V losses listed the ship with 3 lost, which the link confirms. Namely two crew (Capt Sparrius and British Merchant Navy Radio Officer Charles C.B. Hubbuck) and Sgt Thorpe.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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