Desperate to find out about my Grandfather

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by JBaron, May 11, 2017.

  1. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Jo,

    Just look at this topic as it has an example of the B103 forms that are missing from your grandfathers papers. There is usually a "frontispiece" with personal details etc and at least one of the "movements" log tracking the soldiers movements etc. I've just picked this topic at random.

    Steve Y

    http://ww2talk.com/index.php?posts/749854/
     
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  2. JBaron

    JBaron Member

    Thanks Steve - very helpful.

    What would the B103 form show? More movements?

    I've tried to research movements based on the dates of 88th and when they went to France but I get confused with Battalions/Corps/Regiments etc.

    My Grandfather's papers show his date of going to Europe as NYK (presume this stands for Not Yet Known???)

    Does anything else on the forms pop out to anyone as strange ?

    Thanks everyone! :)
     
  3. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Jo,

    Nothing strikes me as unusual in the papers you've uploaded.

    The B103 is the contemporaneous form maintained at unit level from which other Army forms - including his statement of services form is updated - it contains a lot of detail as in the example I attached.

    The NYK is probably a clerical error. All will be revealed if you can get sight of his B103 forms.

    Steve Y
     
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  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Jo

    More reading for you

    The 5th and 7th Battalions The Devonshire Regiment in World War Two - The Keep Military Museum, Dorchester, Dorset
    The 86th landed in Normandy in late June 1944 and in mid-July, as part of 43rd Wessex Division, fought on Hill 112 and near Maltot. Two of their batteries were equipped with 17-pounder anti-tanks guns while the others were in self-propelled M10 tank destroyers. On Hill 112 two of their troops of M10s knocked out five Tiger tanks and one Mark IV. Their machine guns also downed a Focke-Wulf fighter. Here, on the forward slope, one troop of 17-pounders were overrun by the Germans but the gunners managed to remove their firing mechanisms before extricating themselves in good order. Around Maltot the Regiment lost three M10s knocked out. They then saw action in the Falaise pocket, in the south of Holland and across the Rhine until the war’s end in May 1945.

    It also explains how Devon, as such, is connected to the 86th ATk Regt

    Being an anti tank gunner in Normandy during June/July 1944 would have been very arduous and as you have seen battle field replacements would have been very common.
    HILL 112 Memorial
    The battle for Hill 112

    TD
     
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  5. JBaron

    JBaron Member

    Thank you!
    I'm actually going to The Keep next Saturday to see what I can find (if anything).
    I went to Hill 112 last year before I started any real research into my Grandfather and it was very emotional. Crazy to think of all the life lost for land where there was essentially nothing.

    Reading your link to the battle, it would explain why most of the men in my Grandfather's final Battalion were killed a week before him (the attack began on 10th July)
    Maybe he was still in the 88th around 10th but transferred as a battlefield replacement to 86th after they suffered such huge losses at HIll 112.

    I'll keep you updated with whether I get the B103 and if I find anything at The Keep!

    Oh...just so you know, this is Stanley Turner, my Grandfather and all your advice/efforts to help me discover this man are very much appreciated
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    There is always the possibility that during this intense and fast moving chaotic time that the paperwork for his transfer as a battlefield replacement did not catch up with his events and so it was easier at some quiet point in time for the clerk just to write that he was killed in action as part of 86th, the clerks would have had quite a bit of catching up to do I guess.

    TD
     
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  7. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
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  8. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

  9. JBaron

    JBaron Member

    Thank you.
    I posted that picture of him and provided a few extra details.
    Its a fantastic website.

    I hope that with all the research and everyone's kind help from this forum, that I can add to his memorial page
     
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  10. JBaron

    JBaron Member

    Hi All

    I contacted Glasgow this morning and they assure me that everything they have on file has been sent. They tell me they do not recall seeing my Grandfather's B103.
    They have kindly offered to check again but told me not to be hopeful.
    I'm gutted.

    I enquired about the department that would have dealt with my Grandma's pension but, they say they have no access to records.

    I hope that after all this, they have just overlooked his B103. I'm so disappointed.

    The only thing I can find on the 88th AT Reg. is the following, but I'm not even sure if this is relevant without knowing the date he transferred from this, to 86th AT Reg.

    In November 1941, the 2/9th Manchesters, a 2nd Line Territorial Army duplicate of the 1/9th and a Machine Gun Battalion, was transferred to the Royal Artillery and converted into the 88th Anti-Tank Regiment. The 88th Anti-Tank Regiment was part of the 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division and landed in France as part of Operation Overlord.

    Google searches for 88th AT just keep leading me to other Divisions such as 49th Infantry (as above) and then I get really confused as to whether it's relevant or not! :confused:

    Is it possible they mis-read 88th for 86th and incorrectly logged it on his paperwork?
     
  11. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    I've come late to this thread and I may have some bad news.
    I think the army forms B220b's are the ones which are issued for some units (don't ask me why) instead of the B103.
    The reason I say this is I've seen the B220b forms before, and also my father-in-law (who was in the Royal Engineers) -his records are the same as your Grandfather's.

    Lesley
     
  12. JBaron

    JBaron Member

    Thanks Lesley.
    Are B220b forms issued in place of B103s or, would they normally issue both forms?
     
  13. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    The ones I have seen are either B220 or B103, not both. I think it could all depend on which units they were in as to which form they used, but I cannot be sure.
     
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  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    When my fathers records were received I have neither a B220 or B103 - sometimes they are just not in the file I'm afraid

    TD
     
  15. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Lesley,

    I'm not familiar with the B220b form you mention in your quoted post but just for clarification can you confirm you that didn't mean the B200 form - that Jo has attached - as you refer to the B200 form in your second post (not quoted).

    My view based on the many service files I've seen posted on the forum over the years - plus several I've obtained from MOD for family members - and the numerous Australian and Canadian files I've read online is that all Empire Armies used the B103 but that selective information from that source was endorsed on the B200 Statement of Services.

    I would agree with TD that sometimes the B103 are just missing from the soldiers file.

    Steve Y

    Jo,

    Sorry to hear you drew a blank at Glasgow but if you don't get any good news next week I would pursue a formal freedom of information request to the Government Department that handled your grandmother's widows Pensions.

    Steve Y
     
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  16. JBaron

    JBaron Member

    Hi Steve

    I asked Glasgow who would've dealt with the pension and they gave me a number of a place near Blackpool (Norcross).
    I phoned them and they told me that they don't keep service records and can't give out any information.

    Unfortunately, my Grandma died before I was born and both my parents are no longer with us. I have no family members to ask so apologies for the ignorance but what information would my Grandma have received and why would her pension be relevant?
    Jo
     
  17. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Morning Jo,

    The Army records office provided the Pensions Department with copy papers from the soldiers service file so the Pension could be assessed and managed. As good bureaucrats they would retain the file - all I am
    suggesting is a formal FOI application to see if they have retained any papers on file in storage or on microfiche etc.

    The Pensions Department papers were the main providers of WW1 soldiers papers now available via FMP & Ancestry as Army papers were destroyed in London Blitz.

    Steve Y
     
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  18. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    The 88th Anti-Tank Regiment, RA, was only in the 49th (West Riding) Division from 17 June 1942 until 24 July 1943. It then transferred into the 45th (2nd Wessex) Division from 21 January 1944 until 30 August 1944. It had been in XII Corps with the 45th (2nd Wessex) Division in the second half of 1940.

    The latter Division was a Home service only outfit and the second line of the 43rd (Wessex) Division.

    The 43rd (Wessex) Division landed in NW Europe as part of XII Corps on 24 June 1944. Also in XII Corps at this time were the 53rd (Welsh) Division and 59th (Staffordshire) Division. The 86th Anti-Tank Regiment, RA, were XII Corps troops and landed around the same time as, and would support all three Divisions as required.

    The 45th (2nd Wessex) Division was plundered for replacements and was eventually disbanded later in 1944. A lot of those replacements would go to 'sister' units.

    Although not certain, I believe you can see a trail here that explains how your grandfather may have been transferred from the 88th to 86th Anti-Tank Regiment, RA.
     
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  19. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hi Steve,

    My apologies, I mean B200b.
    My father-in-law's Royal Engineer records are B200b's and are complete.
    But my dad's Recce ones are all B103
    Lesley
     
  20. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Lesley,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Steve
     

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