Did the BEF use the Carden Loyd Carrier?

Discussion in '1940' started by James K, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    And to confuse even further a version of the Carden Loyd Artillery tractor was used to tow 6 pounder AT guns but so also was the Loyd Carrier
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  2. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    I believe that is a version of the Carden Loyd light tractor
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  3. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Carden and Loyd were rather like Royce and Rolls. Carden and Royce were engineering geniuses whilst Rolls and Loyd were brilliant at marketing (although Loyd was also a good engineer in his own right). One other similarity both partnerships were broken by air accidents.Rolls was killed in a flying display crash in 1911 (the first ever to be captured on film) whilst Carden was killed in 1935 when the commercial flight he was on went down. Loyd's last design was a rotary sickle sold from 1954 onwards. The groundsman at my school had one a sort of huge wheeled precursor to the flymo. Boudica would have loved it.
     
    James K likes this.
  4. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    The trailer acted as a limber of a 25mm AT gun. The same gun was used by the British Army in France and N Africa but was regarded as too light for trailing and carried it portee in trucks.
     
  5. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    [​IMG]

    Seems there was one book that I could find published on the Loyd carrier. Not sure how comprehensive it is but may be of interest to some browsing this thread.
     
  6. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/dinky-162-light-dragon-tractor-18-168843704

    This was perhaps the best illustration I happened across, though I think that the particular item is gone. There are a few rather more battered ones on ebay it appears.

    Gary
     
  7. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Not part of the 1960s collection. Some pre war Dinkys possibly reissued from stock just after the end of the war. I have the Staff car from this period.
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I have been asking around on this subject. Something that I should have done sooner :)

    It seems likely that there are some additional clues in the photo of the Loyd carrier. A close examination of the two carriers in the background (each side of the CS8 Office Truck) shows that they both have side track guards indicating that they are actually Mk2 Cavalry Carriers. As has been mentioned, eight of these were on the establishment of an Army Tank Battalion. There is a photograph in Nigel Watson's Carrier book showing 4th RTR entraining for France with two of these. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that 7th RTR had any although 8 further arrived with the Base Ordnance Depots in France during January 1940.

    Cavalry Carriers were not on the establishment of an Armoured Division, and 30th Infantry Brigade, despite being part of an Armoured Division Support Group had no tracked vehicles.

    Loyd Carrier & Morris CS8 Office.JPG

    According to Chamberlain and Ellis in Making Tracks, the early Loyd carrier was only used by the army in 1939-40 for the carriage of personnel. Apparently to date, no reference has been found of how and when any got to France but bearing in mind their ability to carry eight men and that they were an improvement over the Cavalry Carrier, it is probably reasonable to expect that this example at least was being used by 4th RTR perhaps for assessment.

    The HQ of 4th RTR seem to have evacuated via Dunkirk after the Arras counter-attack so this is probably a Dunkirk scene.

    If the hypothesis is correct then there could have been a maximum of only 16 Loyds in service in France but the presence of Cavalry Carriers indicates that it would have been fewer than this.
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Didn't someone ID it as a cavalry carrier on the BEF vehicle thread as it has a toolbox on the back.
    Can't be arsed to find the post now.
     
  10. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    This photo is ascribed as a Loyd in Belgium in 1940 however I think it may be a Vickers Carden Loyd Artillery Tractor. The fact that it's towing an early 25 pounder is a slight clue
    https://i.imgur.com/qhAdiQ4.png
     
  11. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    I have a document from the PRO indicating 8 x Loyd Carriers wete lost in France/Belgium with the BEF.

    However, that document is full of numbers which l know to be quite inaccurate. So whether the data regarding Loyd Carriers is correct or not, l cannot say. l have made no effort to research the matter.
     
  12. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    And we've already established that a Loyd Carrier and a Carden Loyd were two different beasts but that many sources manage to conflate the two
     
  13. Vintage Wargaming

    Vintage Wargaming Well-Known Member

    I think it’s plausible - I don’t think many will have gone and of those I doubt any would have come back
     
  14. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    It seems to me that James K does not understand that there was both a Carden Loyd Carrier and a Loyd Carrier - and was too busy complaining about others introducing the word tankette to get a grip.

    I still do not know whether his original question relates to the Carden Loyd Carrier as per the thread title or the Loyd Carrier as per his post that l quoted. Do you? All l know is he is not interested in tankettes.

    Whether my information helps him or not is thus impossible to say.

    Maybe that information is of interest to others.
     
  15. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    If James K were to post a picture of the exact vehicle he is interested in, then all the confusion will be removed and others may be able to offer more relevant assistance.
     
  16. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    The same document noting Loyd Carriers lost by the BEF also records 492 Scout, 84 Bren and 87 OP Carriers lost. No mention of Cavalry Carriers at all. But then it also doesn't record any Light Tanks lost either!

    I said it had problems with its credibility.
     
  17. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Or even if there is confusion between the Carden Loyd Carrrier and the Carden Loyd artillery tractor, there is photographic evidence that the latter was used by the BEF
     
  18. James K

    James K Active Member


    Its Ok, you can put your handbag away now.
     
  19. James K

    James K Active Member

    Thanks and that is the vehicle I asked about.
     
  20. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    Which is a completely different vehicle to the Carden Loyd Carrier that you asked about in your first post and the thread title.

    See the confusion?
     

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