Did the Navy win the Battle of Britain?

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by adrian roberts, Aug 25, 2006.

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  1. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    As for exchanging horses for motor transport, that looks like a logistically monumental task off the cuff, right? Reorganizing entire vehicle parks, maintenance and refuelling subunits, etc, etc.

    They were Germans....;)...
     
  2. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    All right, so where can I find the OOB?



    Here:


    Order of Battle - Unternehmen Seelöwe (Sealion)


    (the planned invasion of the United Kingdom, September 1940)

    Army Group A

    Commander-in-Chief: Generalfeldmarschall Gerd von Rundstedt
    Chief of the General Staff: General der Infanterie Georg von Sodenstern
    Operations Officer (Ia): Oberst Günther Blumentritt

    16th Army

    Commander-in-Chief: Generaloberst Ernst Busch
    Chief of the General Staff: Generalleutnant Walter Model
    Operations Officer (Ia): Oberst Hans Boeckh-Behrens
    Luftwaffe Commander (Koluft) 16th Army: Oberst Dr. med. dent. Walter Gnamm
    Division Command z.b.V. 454: Charakter als Generalleutnant Rudolf Krantz (This staff served as the 16th Army’s Heimatstab or Home Staff Unit, which managed the assembly and loading of all troops, equipment and supplies; provided command and logistical support for all forces still on the Continent; and the reception and further transport of wounded and prisoners of war as well as damaged equipment. General der Infanterie Albrecht Schubert’s XXIII Army Corps served as the 16th Army’s Befehlsstelle Festland or Mainland Command, which reported to the staff of Generalleutnant Krantz. The corps maintained traffic control units and loading staffs at Calais, Dunkirk, Ostend, Antwerp and Rotterdam.)

    FIRST WAVE

    XIII Army Corps: General der Panzertruppe Heinrich-Gottfried von Vietinghoff genannt Scheel (First-wave landings on English coast between Folkestone and New Romney) – Luftwaffe II/Flak-Regiment 14 attached to corps
    17th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Herbert Loch
    35th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Hans Wolfgang Reinhard

    VII Army Corps: Generaloberst Eugen Ritter von Schobert (First-wave landings on English coast between Rye and Hastings) – Luftwaffe I/Flak-Regiment 26 attached to corps
    1st Mountain Division: Generalleutnant Ludwig Kübler
    7th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Eccard Freiherr von Gablenz

    SECOND WAVE

    V Army Corps: General der Infanterie Richard Ruoff (Transferred from the first to the second wave in early September 1940 so that the second echelons of the two first-wave corps could cross simultaneously with their first echelons)
    12th Infantry Division: Generalmajor Walter von Seydlitz-Kurzbach
    30th Infantry Division: General der Infanterie Kurt von Briesen

    XXXXI Army Corps: General der Panzertruppe Georg-Hans Reinhardt
    8th Panzer Division: Generalleutnant Adolf Kuntzen – Luftwaffe Light Flak-Abteilung 94 attached to division
    10th Panzer Division: Generalleutnant Ferdinand Schaal – Luftwaffe Light Flak-Abteilung 71 attached to division
    29th Infantry Division (Motorized): Generalmajor Walter von Boltenstern – Luftwaffe Light Flak-Abteilung 76 attached to division
    Infantry Regiment “Großdeutschland”: Oberst Wilhelm-Hunold von Stockhausen
    Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler Regiment: SS-Obergruppenführer Josef “Sepp” Dietrich

    THIRD WAVE

    IV Army Corps: General der Infanterie Viktor von Schwedler
    24th Infantry Division: Generalmajor Hans von Tettau
    58th Infantry Division: Generalmajor Iwan Heunert

    XXXXII Army Corps: General der Pionere Walter Kuntze
    45th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Friedrich Materna
    164th Infantry Division: Generalmajor Josef Folttmann

    9th Army

    (General der Artillerie Christian Hansen’s X Army Corps headquarters staff with the attached Luftwaffe I/Flak-Regiment 29 was in addition allocated to the 9th Army for use with the first-wave troops)
    Commander-in-Chief: Generaloberst Adolf Strauß
    Chief of the General Staff: Generalleutnant Karl Adolf Hollidt
    Operations Officer (Ia): Oberstleutnant Heinz von Gyldenfeldt
    Luftwaffe Commander (Koluft) 9th Army: (possibly) Generalmajor Maximilian Kieffer
    Division Command z.b.V. 444: Generalmajor Alois Josef Ritter von Molo (This staff served as the 9th Army’s Heimatstab or Home Staff Unit, which managed the assembly and loading of all troops, equipment and supplies, provided command and logistical support for all forces still on the Continent, and managed the reception and further transport of wounded and prisoners of war as well as damaged equipment. It maintained loading staffs at Le Havre, Boulogne and Calais.)

    FIRST WAVE

    XXXVIII Army Corps: General der Infanterie Erich von Lewinski genannt von Manstein (First-wave landings on English coast between Bexhill and Eastbourne) – Luftwaffe I/Flak-Regiment 3 attached to corps
    26th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Sigismund von Förster
    34th Infantry Division: Generalmajor Werner Sanne
    VIII Army Corps: General der Artillerie Walter Heitz (First-wave landings on English coast between Beachy Head and Brighton) – Luftwaffe I./Flak-Regiment 36 attached to corps
    6th Mountain Division: Generalmajor Ferdinand Schörner
    8th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Rudolf Koch-Erpach
    28th Infantry Division: Generalmajor Johann Sinnhuber

    SECOND WAVE

    XV Army Corps: Generaloberst Hermann Hoth
    4th Panzer Division: Generalmajor Willibald Freiherr von Langermann und Erlencamp – Luftwaffe Light Flak-Abteilung 77 attached to division
    7th Panzer Division: Generalmajor Erwin Rommel – Luftwaffe Light Flak-Abteilung 86 attached to division
    20th Infantry Division (Motorized): Generalleutnant Mauritz von Wiktorin – Luftwaffe Light Flak-Abteilung 93 attached to division

    THIRD WAVE

    XXIV Army Corps: General der Panzertruppe Leo Freiherr Geyr von Schweppenburg
    15th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Ernst-Eberhard Hell
    78th Infantry Division: Generalleutnant Curt Gallenkamp
     
  3. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    This is what I made up on powerpoint a while back.

    Sealion Invasion plan 1.jpg
     
  4. leccy

    leccy Senior Member

    Za Rodinu

    This site has alot of OOB for different operations, not seen it compared to Seelion but the Crete one was fairly good when I helped do a little study on it.

    Seelion OOB 7th Sept

    A brief look ties it in with this one as well, not looked fully though.

    Seelion OOB

    This comment intriques me with 'did they actually consider this' I have seen photos of horses being ferried and claimed to be of Seelion trials but this sounded realy daft.

    The Engineer Battalion 47 of VII Army Corps was designated as having responsibility for the "construction of seaworthy ferries out of auxiliary equipment, local supply and bridging equipment". What was unusual in this was that this task, requiring a good knowledge of matters maritime, was tasked to this particular battalion, which had its home base in Bavaria.
    The engineers were nothing if not enthusiastic. They built rafts from pontoons, and were undismayed when half of these rafts sank while in harbour. Attempts to provide these rafts with power failed, because they broke up under the strain. Nonetheless, the Wehrmacht announced that these rafts would be towed behind the barges being towed by the tugs, and that the horses would thus be transported across the Channel on these rafts, saving the difficulties of loading the horses into the barges. One wonders what the horses would have made of this contraption
    The engineers turned their attention to pontoons used for crossing rivers. Even the most optimistic observer had to regard this as a failure. The open pontoons filled with water and sank. The iron beams holding the pontoons together snapped in waves, and the exercise was discontinued.
     
    Za Rodinu likes this.
  5. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Fred
    They were Germans....

    Which does not really mean that organisation and order would be a forgone conlcusion.;)

    The army which invade Crete was German and the losses sustained were heavy.
    Yes the invasion was eventually successful , but the Germans had the upper hand in the air something which they failed to obtain over the Channel and the RN were operating some distance from their bases under enemy dominated skies - this would not be the case had "Sealion" been launched.
     
  6. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    This is what I made up on powerpoint a while back.

    View attachment 57764

    Nice, but very much not according to plan....:unsure:....
     
  7. leccy

    leccy Senior Member

    Originally Posted by Za Rodinu
    As for exchanging horses for motor transport, that looks like a logistically monumental task off the cuff, right? Reorganizing entire vehicle parks, maintenance and refuelling subunits, etc, etc.


    They were Germans....;)...



    What has that to do with the fact??

    Apart from the simple one that the Germans were woefully deficient in motor transport, despite the large numbers of equipment captured from the Allies in 1940, (a significant proportion of which was U/S) the Germans relied mostly on horse drawn transport and artillery.
     
  8. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    Fred

    Which does not really mean that organisation and order would be a forgone conlcusion.;)

    The army which invade Crete was German and the losses sustained were heavy.
    Yes the invasion was eventually successful , but the Germans had the upper hand in the air something which they failed to obtain over the Channel and the RN were operating some distance from their bases under enemy dominated skies - this would not be the case had "Sealion" been launched.
    Hi, James - there's a lot to be written about Crete. Luftwaffe had even worse working conditions than during Dunkirk - even so. If you don't want to read about it you will never find out. If anybody, I would say the Luftwaffe achieved air superiority over the Channel. During the Kanalkampf all traffic was closed during daylight for a period. If RN would have had better working conditions during a Sealion so would the Luftwaffe.

    Soon after Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke had taken up position as Commander-in-Chief Home Forces in the United Kingdom, he attended a meeting of the Chiefs of Staff. After this meeting he wrote in his diary:

    “…in afternoon went to see Dill at the WO (War Office) at 3 pm and from there on to the Chiefs of Staff meeting. Main subject of discussion was the priority of use of fighters in the event of invasion. I came away feeling less confident as to our powers of meeting an invasion. The attitude of representatives of the Naval Command brought (out) very clearly the fact that the navy now realizes fully that its position has been seriously undermined by the advent of aircraft. Sea supremacy is no longer what it was, and in the face of strong bomber forces can no longer ensure the safety of this island against invasion. This throws a much heavier task on the army.”
     
  9. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    What has that to do with the fact??

    Apart from the simple one that the Germans were woefully deficient in motor transport, despite the large numbers of equipment captured from the Allies in 1940, (a significant proportion of which was U/S) the Germans relied mostly on horse drawn transport and artillery.

    I know, that is why they would switch over to mainly motor transport for Sealion (Halder).
     
  10. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    “…in afternoon went to see Dill at the WO (War Office) at 3 pm and from there on to the Chiefs of Staff meeting. Main subject of discussion was the priority of use of fighters in the event of invasion. I came away feeling less confident as to our powers of meeting an invasion. The attitude of representatives of the Naval Command brought (out) very clearly the fact that the navy now realizes fully that its position has been seriously undermined by the advent of aircraft. Sea supremacy is no longer what it was, and in the face of strong bomber forces can no longer ensure the safety of this island against invasion. This throws a much heavier task on the army.”


    Brooke would have said that, wouldn't he ? He wanted more resources for the army.
     
  11. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Here:


    Order of Battle - Unternehmen Seelöwe (Sealion)

    Thank you, this is something I can understand instead of all that gibberish of destroyer here, minesweeper there, all carried away by the tide :)

    This will keep me quiet for a bit while I analise it :D
     
  12. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    This will keep me quiet for a bit while I analise it


    Pardon??? :confused:
     
  13. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    You don't want me jumping at conclusions, do you? :)

    The Engineer Battalion 47 of VII Army Corps was designated as having responsibility for the "construction of seaworthy ferries out of auxiliary equipment, local supply and bridging equipment". What was unusual in this was that this task, requiring a good knowledge of matters maritime, was tasked to this particular battalion, which had its home base in Bavaria.
    The engineers were nothing if not enthusiastic. They built rafts from pontoons, and were undismayed when half of these rafts sank while in harbour. Attempts to provide these rafts with power failed, because they broke up under the strain. Nonetheless, the Wehrmacht announced that these rafts would be towed behind the barges being towed by the tugs, and that the horses would thus be transported across the Channel on these rafts, saving the difficulties of loading the horses into the barges. One wonders what the horses would have made of this contraption
    The engineers turned their attention to pontoons used for crossing rivers. Even the most optimistic observer had to regard this as a failure. The open pontoons filled with water and sank. The iron beams holding the pontoons together snapped in waves, and the exercise was discontinued.

    Leccy, you are a defeatist. If the Germans had looked up their history lessons they could remembar Hannibal and the crossing of the Rhône. The bridge he ordered built was covered with a thick layer of earth, so the elephants would not feel sea-sick. Or river-sick. Now the sea-faring qualities of Bavarian engineers may seem somewhat lacking - rafts sinking in still-water, but maybe I'm being atavistic :D
     
  14. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    Thank you, this is something I can understand instead of all that gibberish of destroyer here, minesweeper there, all carried away by the tide :)

    This will keep me quiet for a bit while I analise it :D

    Sorry it's not more detailed. I believe I have one going down to regiments and battalions somewhere.

    Fred
     
  15. leccy

    leccy Senior Member

    I know, that is why they would switch over to mainly motor transport for Sealion (Halder).


    The only units with reasonable motor transport were the Panzer divs, so they would have to be stripped of them to provide the infantry with motor transport?

    So the follow up panzer divs would have the horses then?

    The Germans despite having all the resources of occupied Europe failed to even motorize half of its army, yet they would be able to motorize the 4 Assault Divisions in a few short weeks, what of the two Panzer divs in the second wave?
     
  16. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    The only units with reasonable motor transport were the Panzer divs, so they would have to be stripped of them to provide the infantry with motor transport?

    So the follow up panzer divs would have the horses then?

    The Germans despite having all the resources of occupied Europe failed to even motorize half of its army, yet they would be able to motorize the 4 Assault Divisions in a few short weeks, what of the two Panzer divs in the second wave?

    Think!
     
  17. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Oh dear. For a very few pages I thought Fred had caught on to the principle of proving/providing evidence for something he said in a forum post.

    Seems I was wrong.

    It's not Leccy's job to think; YOU are the one who said -

    I know, that is why they would switch over to mainly motor transport for Sealion (Halder).


    ...and one major obstacle was raised, the relative paucity of motor transport etc. in the Wehrmacht in 1940.
     
  18. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    What has that to do with the fact??

    Apart from the simple one that the Germans were woefully deficient in motor transport, despite the large numbers of equipment captured from the Allies in 1940, (a significant proportion of which was U/S) the Germans relied mostly on horse drawn transport and artillery.

    Hello Leccy,

    What does 'U/S' mean in your post?

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
  19. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Dave, it's abbreviation for Unserviceable.
     
  20. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    Hello Leccy,

    What does 'U/S' mean in your post?

    Thanks,

    Dave

    Unserviceable
    Broken
    Knackered
    Not working
    etc.:)
     

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