Did the Navy win the Battle of Britain?

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by adrian roberts, Aug 25, 2006.

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  1. Effingham

    Effingham Member

    I might not be perfect in naval matters but you are sorely missing in military matters. When Dønitz made his list he knew his U-boat launch program months ahead and when he wrote:"....all training has to be postponed except on those boats just now under phase-in. Ten new boats shall therefore have to wait for their crews as long as it takes to get back the training boats. These drawbacks must be accepted in view of the importance of the operation. The boats shall be positioned in the Channel, concentrated outside the areas where the British reinforcements are expected to arrive, and at the east coast south of Cross Sand and Hoofden......"

    ....he meant exactly that. This went for all types. And should give him 12 IX's in September. He decided this, work-up or not. As a matter of fact, the new-commisioned boats could be better fighting units than older boats because experienced intructors could be put onboard together whith the assigned crews. In the German Navy, like any other navy, it was not like when a new boat was launched a completely fresh crew suddenly entered it. Many had followed the last stage of the technical finishing at the wharf and of the new crew there was always a cadre of experienced people.

    How he would use his boats is another matter.

    For the IX-boats you state were taken completely out of the operation I don't know what his intention was. One thing I am pretty sure of, they were not to be laid up and their crews sent to Germany for a Kraft durch Freude trip in the Baltic.....;)....


    Is that a straw I see you clutching at?

    How could Doenitz, knowing that the last feasible date for Sealion was late September, possibly have included the five boats not even commissioning until Oct to Dec. 1940 in his calculations? However you twist and turn, the total available in early August was seven, and the maximum total including new boats by the end of September only ten. Perhaps he could have included some of the Type 21s and Type 23s commissioning from June 1944 into the list as well, they would have been just as relevant!

    In simple terms, Doenitz got his figures wrong.

    When you are expanding your force, as Doenitz was trying to do, it is inevitable that green crews need a considerable period of working up. The new Type 9s would have had crews whuch had trained aboard smaller and older Type 2s. It is rather like transferring a fighter pilot from a Tiger Moth to a Spitfire simply because you are short of numbers. He might be able to get the plane into the air, but he wouldn't be able to do much with it!

    As to how he would use his boats, I thought he had stated this in the document you seem so fond of quoting, even if he doesn't seem to know quite how he would get them through the RN minefields.

    The Type 9s transferred to other duties were, as you ought to know if you claim to have detailed knowledge of the period, sent off on long-range operations ( taking advantage of the lack of RN convoy escorts at the time because of the concentration of destroyers in the Channel area, despite your 'research') and weather reporting duties. This latter task was humdrum but essential, as a Channel storm hitting the invasion barges would have left the Royal Navy with little left to sink.

    In which aspects of military matters am I sorely missing? Perhaps someone else on here could enlighten me?

    A final point about Ju87s. I thought you might have known that this type was withdrawn by the Luftwaffe on 18 August because of heavy losses, hence the nearest relevant figures, which I stated earlier.

    Come on, surely you can do better than this?
     
  2. Effingham

    Effingham Member

    Is this the worst you can think of in your life.... :D....

    No switch of books, then.....:unsure:....?


    Have these comments any relevance to Sealion or the Battle of Britain?

    I have, however, decided not to purchase your book, as I have never had much time for fiction, of whatever sort.
     
  3. Effingham

    Effingham Member

    Come on folks, there much be many of you out there, why not join in!

    Until recently, I didn't believe there were any good Swedish comedians. Now I know differently.

    And before anyone points it out, I know this hasn't anything to do with Sealion or the Battle of Britain either!
     
  4. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    I haven't the figures to join in this latest word battle. To be fair both of you could be wrong and I wouldn't have a clue. But I do think there is no need for the put downs and slating.
    Just present your arguments.
     
  5. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Well, they weren't picked off easily. As a matter of fact the first one sunk by enemy action was in 1942, then by aircrafts.


    Well, M5 was sunk on the 18th of June 1940! It sailed onto an incoveniently-placed Royal Navy mine...

    M6 did the same off Lorient on the 23rd of October 1941...

    M11 ALSO sank after hitting a mine on the 6th of June 1940...

    Only 23 had been commissioned by the putative mid-September Sealion date; which means 13% of the available M35s had been lost to enemy minelaying BEFORE Sealion!

    And before you say being lost to mines doesn't count as "enemy action" - those mines had to be GOT there...at not inconsiderable risk to submarine or ship or aircraft.
     
  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Whilst discussion and debate is one of the strengths of this forum, open slanging is not conducive to current members and potential new members.
    Lets just keep it sensible
     
  7. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    Don't know if this has been said in this necro thread but.. the RAF won what is called the battle of Britain the Navy even if the the RAF had been wipe the Navy could off probable would have stop a lot of landings but I believe if any majors forces hand landed even if defeated we would of have to of had to of for sued for peace. I think this is born out by the post War war games that featured Adolf Galland.
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The RAF won it as far as I'm concerned.
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The Brewster Buffalo won the Battle of Britain. Either that or MSN has access to a very restricted photo library....

    [​IMG]

    The conspiracy theorist in me says that this is yet another example of US owned media re-writing history.:unsure:
     
  10. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    And before you say being lost to mines doesn't count as "enemy action" - those mines had to be GOT there...at not inconsiderable risk to submarine or ship or aircraft.
    Which shouldn't surprise anybody since they were originally built as minesweepers. Apart from that it has little to do with the previous discussion here, if your point isn't that they were "picked off" by mines....:)....There were quite a lot of mines included in the Sealion plans, too.....:rolleyes:....
     
  11. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Rich....

    That's a Curtiss Hawk...
     
  12. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    The Brewster Buffalo won the Battle of Britain. Either that or MSN has access to a very restricted photo library....

    [​IMG]

    The conspiracy theorist in me says that this is yet another example of US owned media re-writing history.:unsure:

    Are you not mixing the Buffalo up with the Hawk....:lol:....
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The Brewster Buffalo won the Battle of Britain. Either that or MSN has access to a very restricted photo library....

    [​IMG]

    The conspiracy theorist in me says that this is yet another example of US owned media re-writing history.:unsure:

    I thought Brewster Buffalo was a starter on the Pubs menu :unsure:
     
  14. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    There were quite a lot of mines included in the Sealion plans, too.....:rolleyes:


    The majority of which were BRITISH ones...

    Which the M35s seemed to be somewhat allergic to.
     
  15. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    The majority of which were BRITISH ones...

    Which the M35s seemed to be somewhat allergic to.

    As any ship would be.....
     
  16. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    The Brewster Buffalo won the Battle of Britain. Either that or MSN has access to a very restricted photo library....

    [​IMG]

    The conspiracy theorist in me says that this is yet another example of US owned media re-writing history.:unsure:


    Could be wrong but 'ant that a French war hawk? (mohawk)

    LOL so many peeps in before me.
     
  17. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    The majority of which were BRITISH ones...

    Please tell!
     
  18. fredleander

    fredleander Senior Member

    Could be wrong but 'ant that a French war hawk?
    Not war hawk - Hawk 75A-2.....Mohawk was those delivered to Britain after the fall of France.
     
  19. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    The majority of which were BRITISH ones...

    Please tell!

    Fred, if you don't know anything about the layout of British minefields, how they were controlled, the minelaying/clearing capacity of the RN/RNPS etc., etc....

    It's a bit late to acquire that knowledge now, isnt it?
     
  20. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    Not war hawk - Hawk 75A-2.....Mohawk was those delivered to Britain after the fall of France.

    Yep i think the had to change the throttles to go the right way and were not past fit for service.
     

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