Hello, I've just signed up as this seems a good place to be for potential information and help. My Great, Great Grandfather was a Pte in WW2 in the East Yorkshire Regiment, 4th Battalion. From what I have seen from local newspaper articles he was a Prisoner of War in Italy (Camp number 53, Urbisaglia Macerata, (also listed as Sforza Costa), postal mark number 3300. We found that this rumour was true last year when stumbling on this article. Around 1944 he attempted an escape from this camp and was recaptured and transferred to Germany in the Prisoner of War camp Stalag XIa. He was liberated 7th July 1945 and lived until 1978, however, for reasons obvious to the horrors he would have witnessed, he never spoke of his time or anything at all regarding the war. I am trying to piece together how he came about being captured in the first place and whether the rumour as how he was recaptured after his attempted escape, as the family have always believed that it was because the escapees had stolen some boots and made their escape in the snow, with the Italian soldiers following the prints left behind. I thank you for taking the time to read this and I wish you a pleasant day! Kindest Regards.
Hi Kerri Firstly the most important thing you need to do is obtain his service records, and they can only be found by downloading, filling in and sending off the forms on this link Request records of deceased service personnel from the MOD Secondly if you post his details some of us may be able to fill in some background details whilst you are waiting his service records TD
Hi, thank you for replying, I know his service number and his POW number, Service No; 4346786 POW No; 142553
Ok - a name would really help, his full name may help even more UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 Name: W Slaney Rank: Private Army Number: 4346786 Regiment: East Yorkshire Regiment POW Number: 142553 Camp Type: Stalag Camp Number: XI-A Camp Location: Altengrabow, Saxony-Anhalt A starting point - Stalag XI-A - Wikipedia TD
Great, thank you, I have all that information from the research I have been doing over the last few years, I'm just trying to find the pieces in between these, such as where and why he was captured and whether the rumour as how his recapture happened, I always seem to hit a brick wall
What is his name, the more details you provide the more members may be able to help, we have a number who live in Italy and help find old partisans etc - posting his service record will help TD
Hello Kerri, Here is what happened to his unit: During WW2 the 4th Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment, was one of the three battalions making up 150 Brigade. In April 1941 the 150th Brigade, as part of 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division fought in Libya as part of XIII corps, British Eighth Army. Whilst fighting on the Gazala Line the Brigade was overrun at Bir Hakeim and destroyed,and never reformed. The prisoners,and therefore I assume your g grandfather, were sent on to Italy. Pte. Frederick George Spittel British Army 4th Btn. East Yorkshire Regiment The Wartime Memories Project More important than his service record is his Liberation Report - let's hope it has survived. It will be written in his own hand and will give you all the camps he was held in. One of the members on this site who regularly visit the National Archives will get you a copy for a very modest price. (Send me a private message). In general, the men who were taken at Bir Hakeim spent time in Italian POW camps in Libya before being sent to Italy. they would first go to a holding or transit camp - such as PG 66 Capua - from where they were sent to a main camp, in your g. grandfather's case to PG 53. In the spring early summer of 1943 many men were sent from PG 53 to WORK CAMPS in Northern Italy - for instance to PG 106 Vercelli or to PG 146 Mortara. In the days following the Italian Armistice of 8 September 1943 they escaped from these work camps, most of which were farms, and some tried to cross the Alps into Switzerland. Others joined up with the partisans for a while, but most were recaptured by the Germans and were sent to Stalags in Germany as was your g grandfather. Whilst waiting to be sent to the Stalags after recapture the men were again sent to the ex- pow camps, which were being used as holding camps - for example, if you g. grandfather had NOT been sent to a work camp in the north but was roaming around in the Appenine mountains near to PG 53 when he was recaptured, he may have been held in PG 102 Aquila before being put on the train to Germany. HIS LIBERATION REPORT WILL GIVE YOU THESE DETAILS. Men left without boots had usually been recaptured and put on a train for a Stalag in Germany. If someone escaped from the train the Germans took the boots off all the men in the same wagon - and sometimes the whole train - to deter others from doing the same. Perhaps your ggrandfather escaped without his boots only to be recaptured. Vitellino Edited- I misread the boots bit - I assumed he was without them, as was the case with so many escapers who were picked up and sent on the the Stalags. See post below.
Vitellino Kerri says in her first post Is that likely? armistioce and all that or is it more likely it would have Germans - just trying to tie in timescales It might also be easier for you to message Kerri as new members have to build up a number of posts I believe before they can start messaging TD
Could have been. A scenario might be - before leaving the camp after the armistice the prisoners raided the camp stores where they found a supply of boots (which would have been supplied by the Red Cross but never issued). They set off for the Alps, presumably in the company of some locals, possibly deserters from the Italian Army, and were tracked down by the Fascists belonging to the newly-formed Republic of Salò. The soldiers could just as easily have been Germans. However, I suspect that he had his boots taken from him, as I have written, and the story has become mixed up. I wonder why it was thought that he escaped from the camp in 1944? I will send Kerri a message as you suggest, thanks. Vitellino
Welcome to the forum, Kerri90. Your Great, Great Grandfather’s army number is definitely from the East Yorkshire Regiment block of numbers: 4334001 - 4379000. As he was first a prisoner of the Italian’s, this likely means he was taken PoW in the Western Desert sometime between 23 June 1941 and 1 June 1942. The reasons being that: 1. The Italians did not commence hostilities in WWII until 10 June 1940 so he could not have been captured whilst with the BEF in Belgium/France up to 2 June 1940 and put into their care, and 2. The 4th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment, along with the rest of the 150th Infantry Brigade, were overrun in the Gazala line battles by the DAK (Rommel’s Deutsche Afrika Korps) on 1 June 1942 and all of the survivors were taken PoW. The 150th Infantry Brigade arrived in the Middle East on 23 June 1941 and were almost immediately sent up to the Western Desert. So, it is possible that he was taken PoW anytime between just after 23 June 1941 and 1 June 1942, but the latter date is the most likely. It is not correct that the 150th Infantry Brigade was overrun at Bir Hakeim. They had been there for a while and had built many of the defences that the Free French were to make good use of in the same Gazala Line battles. However, the 150th Infantry Brigade had moved twice thereafter to different positions in the Gazala Line. At the time they were overrun they were at Rotunda Ualeb, 10 miles to the north of Bir Hakeim. They were also separated from the rest of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division, of which they were part, which was situated 6 miles to their north. As advised in the prior posts, you should acquire his service records and his liberation report (assuming he has one)! Best, Steve.
A May 1939 photograph of a group of Hull men from 4th East Yorks after returning from training in Morecambe: as kindly furnished by Tony Church at Hull Good Old Days: https://www.facebook.com/groups/278450892200994/?locale=en_GB Tony is keen to identify those pictured, so if anyone can assist ...........
