EY grenade discharger cup and rifle

Hi guys - was the EY cup/rifle still "regular" Army issue by the summer of 1940?

It was soon available for Home Guard use, which normally argues no...

 

Phylo:

The 9th Australian Division used the EY extensively against the Japanese in 1943-45, so it was certainly standard issue at that time. From this, I would presume that it was also standard in 1940. I looked at a lot of war diaries for my book, but I found no mention of use until the 9th went to New Guinea. I suspect that while the EY was theoretically available before 1943, it just was not used for various other reasons, possibly tactical. There is no doubt that the EY was helpful in close quarters fighting of the kind encountered by the 9th in New Guinea.

By the way, the Home Guard did use a lot of standard army equipment. I posted a link to an excellent article/thesis on HG armament on the captured and non-standard weapons thread.

 

There is some confusion on this - 'Cups, Disharger' were standard issue early in the war and could be attached to any No.1 Rifle (SMLE). Sections still had members designated as Bombers who should have carried the launcher and adapters for the grenades. I recall seeing some official photos of them being carried as infantry platoon equipment in the French campaign - however they could be detached and in any of the pouches. The binding of stocks and using part worn rifles - designated as 'EY' - was recommended for sustained use where repeated exposure to the pressures involved could damage the barrel and/or split the stock (i.e. training or where the rifle could be designated for the role). Many of the surviving examples were either training rifles or were held by security forces as smoke or gas launchers for public order use.

Cheers
Keith

 

Keith, thanks for that - I'd wondered about France...which also saw LAA units join the BEF equiped with lewis guns due to not enough brens being available, pre-'38 pattern webbing and WWI field tunics being issued rather than BD, etc. etc...

TTH I was aware the Australians had them and continued to use them, but until mid-war the Australian army ended to be doctrinally slightly behind the British Army - see the many written discussions of events on Crete, for example. The Canadian Army also used them....or possibly started to re-use them, given their WWI experience too...in 1941.

For some years I've been interested in the No.68 grenade, to be used with the EY cup - and information on THAT is far thinner on the ground than even the EY cup! I've also read that "small numbers were sent to France"...but I've also been given a date of first issue of November 19401 for the No.68...so had come to assume the "small numbers" actually referred to the dischargers!

The manuals I've managed to find for the EY cup and various grenades DO state that the cup could be unscrewed and pouched - but this may not be the case by WWII; they read like re-published WWI-era manuals, but later marks of the EY cup also had a clamp that tightened on the outside of the barrel muzzle, and fitting/removal was an armourer's job. So this, plus the need to wrap the rifle on forestock and butt to help withstand the heavy recoil would have made the giving-over of any rifle to this use somewhat permanent...

Using the No.68 was worst of all; it was only to be used with the gas control "key" turned to the full pressure 100 yard setting i.e. no bleed-off of propellant gases. The cup also had to be screwed in its final turn; normal instructions were for it to be screwed in then backed off a turn - and given the belt-and-braces external clamp for the cup, this too would hint at the conversion being..."dedicated". The one manual I've found so far for the No.68 grenade politely notes that no matter what care taken, firing a round or two could result in the loss of said rifle...!

I've only ever come across references to the No.68 being used by the Australians in the Desert - and when I've asked to be directed to the original source they've turned out to be that thin..."used by the Australians in the Desert". Can anyone confirm the November 1940 date of issue to the British Army - or if it was ever formally issued at all? It certainly has a somewhat "transparent" career in British service up to the arrival of the PIAT...

 

The Australians were doctrinally behind? I can't speak about the Australian Army generally, but the 9th Division certainly wasn't behind doctrinally or tactically; if anything they were ahead of some other formations.

In terms of equipment, they were indeed somewhat behind. Australian war production took a while to get into gear so the Second AIF that went to the Middle East was heavily dependent on the British, who were themselves still suffering from equipment shortages after Dunkirk. So, the 9th took a lot of odd and old stuff because it couldn't get anything else. The 9th made a virtue of this, acquiring anything that could shoot in order to boost firepower, and kept up the practice even after standard equipment arrived in quantity. The 9th Division had more above-establishment scrounged and captured weaponry than any other in 8th Army, and that helped in both attack and defense.

 

IIRC Clark and Macdonald made the point that the Australian (and New Zealand) forces both began their wars using one of the early 1930s sets of Field Service Regulations, and together with an officer cadre whos top field officers were still very much WWI hands, this robbed them of a degree of tactical flexibility when faced with the best of current European - for example the FJ, arguably the best and best-trained light infantry in the world 1940-41.

It was one of the reasons that various tactical failures on Crete was put down to...before everyone got sidetracked into blaming it on ULTRA!

 

Phylo - I detect an assumption that discharger cups were considered 'old hat' - I am not sure British or any Commonwealth 'doctrine' had moved away from their use at least by 1940. I believe it had been part of the equipment right the way through the inter-war period into the Second World War. Soldiers were certainly trained on the kit. Introduction of the 2" mortar and anti-tank rifle meant the platoon had an increasingly variable load - experience of action in the Second World War practicalities led to the least useful pieces of kit being left behind at unit level. Reports of this would inform higher formations and those responsible for 'doctrine'. We need some operational analysis reports - I will see what I can find in what I have.

There was certainly wartime production of the screw-on gas check discs and inclusion of the threaded socket on the 36M Grenade base plug continued throughout its production.

Keith Matthews

 

It is also worth looking at the production of the .303 inch H Mark Iz discharger cartridge for the cup discharger.
The latest dates i have in my collection are UK 1942, Canada 1943, Australia 1943 and New Zealand 1942. I am sure there are later ones but by 1944 production seems to have switched to the H Mark IVz for the No.4 and No.5 rifle spigot dischargers for the No.85 grenade (US M9A1).

Of course, the HIz cartridge had also replaced the AFV Smoke Discharger E Mark IT in about 1938 and was authorised for use in shrapnel mines

Regards
TonyE

 

Hi Keith - an unexpected visit to the surgeon's table - I'm just back home haven't even had the chance to finish sleeping off the general anasthetic - robbed me of the chance to say just that, that in the UK the decision was made to go to the 2" mortar instead After all, the EY cup was just that, a way of getting "extra yards" - getting the Mills Bomb out to and beyond the 25 yard range where the thrower could be perforated by his own fragments...thus once the decision was made to go in that direction AND develop the "Bakelite" grenade with its smaller blast radius and lighter weight - the discharger and arguably the No.36 itself was "old hat"! Still useful, maybe vital...but not the "ideal" solution to various new criteria...

 

Hi Tony - what was the actual difference with the earlier cartridge...grains of propellant?

I don't see much issue with dates of cartridge manufacture - the HG was still using them in the UK, and as previously noted the various Commonwealth armies were still using dischargers.

It may be apochryphal, but I've also seen a note that the Canadians started using No. 68 A/t grenades them because they HAD them...a canadian company was contracted to manufacture and ship them to the UK, to supplement UK manufacture - but it was declared obsolete in the UK before they could be shipped... so the Canadians were stuck with them! Hence their "introduction" there in 1941, and their "new" manuals dated 1941!

 

IIRC No1s set up as wire-bound GF rifles remained in British stores into the 1960s; well after the No1 itself became obsolete. Peter Laidler recounts having to refurbish them for store. Presumably the EY/GF rifles were retained as long as the Mills derivatives remained in service.

 

Hi Thunderbox - the Army has a habit of doing that - look at the warehouses-ful of WWI trench duckboards and removeable mule shoes the first big defence audit under Thatcher's government turned up!

Also, the special discharger developed for the No4 to fire the Energa rifle grenade - the Projector (No4 rifle) Mk5 - some TA units in the late 1950s still used No4s - MAY have retrofitted the No1...anyone know?

 

Sandhurst was not issued SLRs till the September term in 1959. Due to shortage of 7.62 blank we got No 4s for exercises even after that. Thus I think that there were still many regular units using No 4s into the 1960s.

Chris

 

The teeth arms Infantry had SLR's in 58 .I was posted to !6 Para Bde In 59 where SLR's were on issue my parent unit (Regular)RAOC still had No4,s

 

Of grenades and cup dischargers, use/non-use.

A very late addition, re-found when seeking out something else (always the case!) but hopefully of interest to all.

The assault of the gun batteries on Capo Murro di Porco by the Special Raiding Squadron, Sicily, 9th/10th July 1943, extract from;

"These Men Are Dangerous, The Special Air Service at War" by D I Harrison, published by Cassell and Company Ltd. 1957.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

While the War Establishment VI/1062/1 for the Special Raiding Squadron mentioned in post #15 gives no data for weapons at all,
the War Establishment VIII/629/1 for its successor Special Air Service Regiment, effective 07.01.1944, shows
- 30 Rifles, E.Y.
...
- 30 Cups, discharger

That tells of course nothing about their use.

 

Hi all, joining this post very late but...

Was the Indian infantry battalions equipped with the EY cup discharger at the beginning of WW2, any mention of their use in North or East Africa?

Because the grenade launcher had a range of may be 100 yards, it may have not been of much use in the desert, fighting over longer ranges, but in the Jungles of South East Asia, where combat distances were much closer, it would have been of much greater value.

See No.1 Mk.I Cup Discharger - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games for a nice little explanation of the weapon

see Discharging an EY Discharger Cup (Private Henry Maris) for its use with the Australians in Borneo

 

Touching very lightly on this thread, from my blog

Thunder Flash

Hal.......... was a Canadian Black Watch Officer serving with 1 Coy. 10 Para.
He was quite impressed when shown how to remove the Parachute from a 2 Inch Mortar Para illuminate Bomb and launch a fizzing thunderflash.

This lead him to be quite happy when told that if he slipped a thunderflash over the Flash hider on an SLR and using a blank it would be propelled like the old Energa grenade.

So butt on ground ,SLR at 45 degrees load thunderflash pull trigger.

Enormous explosion and with blackened face ,ringing ears and singed hair he looked like something in a Tom and Jerry cartoon.



Note to young Officers ,the Sgt has not always got your best interest in mind.

Do not try this at home.

 

I would infer that the cup discharger was available at section level in 1940. It was in 1941, with a note that it would be retained for the No.68 grenade as the 2-in mortar became available at platoon level (MTP No.14 India - Infantry Section Leading - 1941)

Later on, the cup discharger's value increased as its ability to fling a time-fuzed grenade through trees was often more useful than a contact-fuzed 2-in mortar bomb.