General Mark CLARK

Discussion in 'Italy' started by harribobs, Feb 4, 2005.

  1. Len Trim

    Len Trim Senior Member

    Lucas, who held the high regard of Eisenhower, Marshall and Patton, was placed in a difficult position. He could have acted more aggressively, but the chain of command was pretty weak above corps level as well. The operation was not well handled at several levels, Lucas's being one of them.

    Having just finished D'Estes 'Fatal Decision' I tend to agree with you. Lucas was in a no win situation. He simply did not have the manpower in the initial stages of the landings at Anzio to take the Alban Hills and to hold on to them in the face of the inevitable rapid German counterattacks. He was right to build up the beachhead. Churchill was being very unfair when he made his wild cat/ stranded whale comment. Possibly trying to limit his role in pushing for the landing.

    Len
     
  2. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    Len the first principle is to get off the beach and secure the high ground, not doing that was Lucas main error, had the heights been secured it would have been much harder for the Germans to dominate the beachhead
     
  3. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    Very interesting debate and several great book mentions in this thread, I too am just coming to grips with the Italy campaign thanks to my interest in 4th Indian Div. I have to say that of the various reviews of Clark I have read none of them seem much complimentary.

    NB For an interesting view on FDR and his thought of Britain [someone mentioned earlier about FDR] see his son's book As He Saw It. A contemporary review, as borne out by declassified files at NARA and elsewhere, by Arthur Schlesinger Jr cites "Roosevelt saw Great Britain and its imperial system as a far greater adversary to the United States than Russia" FDR's and Churchill's different views on the postwar world are well known.
     
  4. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    What were your impressions of the book Len?
     
  5. Len Trim

    Len Trim Senior Member

    I enjoyed the book and found it very informative. It was one of those books that seemed to drag at times but somehow you were sad to finish. Certainly there was no knee jerk blaming of the Brits for failures and some very sympathetic write ups about the British troops on the left flank in the gullies and the lobster claw etc. etc. A book well worth reading.


    Len
     
  6. Len Trim

    Len Trim Senior Member

    Len the first principle is to get off the beach and secure the high ground, not doing that was Lucas main error, had the heights been secured it would have been much harder for the Germans to dominate the beachhead

    How often do I remember practising just such an operation in my army days.Running up from the beaches west of Paphos (Cyprus) and securing the high ground in the days long before the tourist hotels took over that part of Cyprus!

    However D'Estes argument is that if Lucas had done that at Anzio his lines of communication from beach head to Alban hills would have been very exposed to German counter attack and he quotes Kesselring saying that if Lucas had sent troops up into the Alban hills he, Kesselring, would have annihilated them.

    Len
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Len Trim
    D'estes arguements were not always based on facts - but Lucas was advised by the two British Divisional Commanders to try to advance to the High ground and which he rejected as he was guided by his commander " not to stick his neck out "
    The difference between the high ground from the beach and the Alban Hills was something like 12 - 15 miles - which might have been catastrophic for a small party but the high ground from the beach itself would have precluded being over looked - even going to the toilet - THAT was the main problem...
    Cheers
     
  8. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    And that is as eloquent and concise a review as you could ever hope to read. I totally agree with your sentiments Len.
     
  9. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    A bit 'pop' and very top down, but a readable overview here.

    'A Question of Leadership: The 5th Army In Italy' by John McNeel
    in The Virginia Quarterly Review Vol. 76, No. 1 (Winter 200) pp. 96-112 (University of Virginia).

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  10. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    When my dad was in the hospital in the 1990's his roommate was a Polish tanker. He hated Clark.

    He also hated Montgomery. He tried to affect an aristocratic British accent with his heavy Polish accent while looking down his nose saying, "I think we have gone a bridge too faaah!"

    I read that when Clark was a senior at West Point he was required to select a religion for his record. He said he selected Episcopalian because that was the religion of the majority of senior officers at the time and he thought it would make him more acceptable to them.

    We're so lucky we got Eisenhower as Supreme Allied Commander and not Clark.
     
  11. MaisyeTheLanc

    MaisyeTheLanc Press On Regardless

    Gen. Mark Clark claims

    After reading Tug Of War by Graham and Bidwell, I had formed a rather poor opinion of Gen. Mark Clark. So I was interested to see him speak for himself in one of the World At War episodes, which I recently got on DVD.
    I'm afraid my opinion has sunk farther as a result. At one point Clark bemoans the wide variety of forces at his disposal during the Italian Campaign, "some didn't eat this kind of food" or that "some didn't fight on Fridays..."
    He expresses preference for the Germans, who all ate the same food and worshipped the same god. Hmmm.
    So my question is, is there any basis in fact for Clarks claim that some of his Allied troops "wouldn't fight on Fridays"?
    Many thanks,
    Clint
     
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  12. Andsco

    Andsco Well-Known Member

    He also bemoaned the fact that D-Day happened the day after he liberated Rome and stole his thunder, he was quoted as saying "they couldn't give me just one day" so he could revel in his success. He moved on Rome after ignoring orders from General Alexander to cut off the German retreat from the Gustav line allowing thousands of axis troops to escape. Clark entered Rome unopposed as the Kesselring did not think the city was strategically important.
    Andy
     
  13. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    When he specified his religion when he was a West Point cadet he selected Episcopalian because he had researched it and found that was what the majority of generals were.
     
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  14. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Apparently Friday is the important holy day from Muslims and there would have been some Muslims in the Indian divisions. I don't know if any were placed under 5th Army command at times?
     
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  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm fairly sure that anyone serving with the British 5th Division under Clark would happily have had him in a boxing ring on any day of the week !
     
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  16. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    # 4 "I don't know if any were placed under 5th Army command at times?"
    Oh yes they were!

    Monte Grande Nov Dec 1944.
    Clarke oredered the American 88th (Blue Devils) Division to make rapid advance to the Po Valley before winter set in.
    They took Monte Battaglia which they found undefended but were pinned down in a 7 day slogging match to hold it.
    They were eventually relieved by the Guards who tidied the place up creating a strict British defensive plan.
    They then raced across to Monte Grande which they found to be lightly held.
    But in their advance to Monte Calderaro were stopped by the German Para Divisions at Vedriano.

    Having failed to penetrate the PO Valley, the men of the by now much under strength American 88th Division became demoralised
    to the point of breakdown and in need of rest.
    They were out on a limb in a long vulnerable salient with no support on their flanks.

    It was decided to relieve them immediately, replacing them with the British 1st Infantry Division, who were fighting in the Senio Valley.
    It was impossible to exploit a breakthrough to the PO valley, due to poor road and weather conditions.
    12th November, the 88th went to their rest area near Florence.
    They never returned to Monte Grande.

    1st Div were considerably under strength with no prospect of replacements.
    The 2nd Royal Scots were overrun on Monte Castellaro resulting in them being withdrawn for rest and retraining.
    The 19th Indian Brigade were brought up from the Indian 8th Division to replace them.
    After a very serious attack by the German 1st and 4th Para troop Div, in an attempt to cuit off the troops on
    Monte Grande, had been stopped on Monte Cerere.
    The Indian Division was sent west to assist the Americans who were in desperate trouble under threat of losing their supply base at Lucca.

    Battle of Garfagnana - Wikipedia

    Clark had no real reason other than to be grateful for their assistance.

    Read the interview with Clarke by Brian Harpur in his book The Impossible Victory see what he thought of the man.

    Memorial Monte Grande & Cerere.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  17. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

  18. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Thanks Dave I read The Blue Devils in Italy by John P Delaney.
    To find out why the British 1st Division was sent there.

    Ok we look in hindsight but they really should have been allowed to fall back and straighten their lines of defence.
    Clarke again, with his gung ho poorly planned approach.

    Sadly the 88th seem to buy him.
    The mess they left around Monte Grande was dreadful.
    Abandoned Tanks and Tank Destroyers which the Canadians had to go up and man because they were stuck in the mud.
    No proper lines of defence, subject to infiltration.
    They simply packed up and went.

    I took Umbridge when Delaney made a comment about the British, who failed to keep up with them to protect their right flank.
    They didnt' know why but I do. I made sure to check what they were doing.

    The Americans had a monopoly on the main route North to Bologna leaving the Brits to struggle through the Lamone and Senio Valleys with blown bridges and rock blasted to cause landslides on un mettled narrow roads.
    When Clarke got stuck at the Futah Pass, he shoved the Brits to the right to take the route they had cleared.
    Everything was done to get him into the Po Valley first.

    The 67th Field Regt which I have written about, were in 1st Division and the first Artillery Regiment on all their advances including the Anzio landings.
    They really liked Clarke!

    When they joined 1st Div in 1940 their Commander was General Alexander.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
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  19. Gary Tankard

    Gary Tankard Well-Known Member

    I think he was referring to the largely Muslim units of the French Expeditionary Corps that were under 5th Army command for several months in 1944.
     
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  20. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    There were plenty of Muslim troops fighting for the Allies in Italy, but would they fight on a Friday? I've never seen anything to suggest they wouldn't apart from this one petulant quote by Clark.

    Regards

    Tom
     

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