German Firefly - Captured Vehicles in Enemy Service

If I was a German tankie, I wouldn't want to crew it.

Hi Owen...

I guess that's what a lot of people would say, but let's not forget that the Sherman's fundamental weakness was only highlighted when faced by superior armour - like the Panther and Tigers - and heavy anti-tank artillery - like the '88'. Otherwise the M4 was a very useful tank, especially when mated with the British 17 pounder in Firefly form.

German crews - while, yes, they probably would have preferred a Panther - will have felt more comfortable than their Allied counterpart in the M4 as they would have been facing tanks of equal prowess (Allied M4s, Churchills and Cromwells). But, with the 17 pounder on their side they would have felt confident that there was no Allied tank they couldn't take out!

It would have been interesting to think what would have happened when this German M4 came up against a British Comet (or even another M4 or M10 Firefly)...But until then I think the 'Von Sherman' would have been quite a formidable foe.

 

Hello.

I didn't see a reply to you question about the visual differences of a Sherman Firefly.
The Firefly had a very distinctive round muzzle brake. I don't think any other Shermans had muzzle brakes until Korea. They also usually lacked a bow machine gun and had a turret bussle but for me the muzzle brake is the most noticeable difference.

 

Sorry about that.
I was trying to send a direct reply to Adrian Roberts to respond to his question about visual differences of Fireflys.

Dave

 

Sorry if this link has been posted already but this is a great site showing captured armour in use by the Allied and Axis forces.

Beutepanzer

I was suprised to see how many T34's were in German service, especially with such an elite unit as Das Riech.

Love some of the photo's posted, never seen many of them. Please post more if anyone has them. Would certainly be an interesting topic for military modellers out there.

 

Just a few. K

 

Just a few. K



Fantastic pictures Ivan. the panarama is great. What a mess.

From right to left

an 88
a Late Pz4 75mm
another

Hanomag with its front wheels down a hole or axle missing
A welded Sherman
A Jagdpanzer IV
A panther
A 8 wheel armoured car I think
Another Jagdpanzer

Kev

 

Some M 4 Sherman's equipped with the 76mm gun also had muzzle brakes but I believe a few did not. I could have been added as a result of experience.

I see where some captured tanks were rearmed but how did the Germans fuel Soviet tanks. In am not aware of the Germany Army using diesel fuel in combat. It sounds logistically complicated.

Gaines in Alabama

 

I am no tank expert but the Firefly is recognisable to me by the long barrel and muzzle brake, also the 'Bussel' at the rear of the turret. Don't think I have seen (or perhaps just not recognised) 17 pounder without muzzle brake.
Didn't some German long barelled tank guns with muzzle brake look very similar?

Mike

 

Mike, My fault, unclear post. The Sherman is US form had mostly shorter barrel 75 mm guns without brakes but later about 25% were equipped with an improved long barrel US gun called the 76mm. The vast majority of these had a muzzle brake and perhaps all did. The British mounted a modified 17 pounder in some of their Sherman's and it indeed had a brake and a bustle. Interestingly a few Sherman's had a 105 mm howitzer mounted, short barrel, no brake.

Indeed, at a quick glance most muzzle brakes are similar but in actuality they differ a bit. I have to see them in photos together to see the differences. The German's up graded their main guns after encountering T-34's by increasing velocity through longer barrels, tapered bores and sporting brakes to decrease recoil.

I too am ill versed on the finer points of armor as many here are but I do enjoy reading about them and have been lucky enough to have visited Bovington and Samur.

 

Just a few. K

The photo on the far right, do you know where this is taken?

 

Just come across a couple of pics of Sherman Beutepanzers. I'd not seen either before. I really like the Bergesherman.. the other one appears to have been captured by the Russians, it's third owners?

Or its a Soviet Sherman (lend-lease) which the Germans captured and which the Soviets recaptured.

All the best

Andreas

 

Not heavy armour but armour all the same.

Given the choice of Kübelwagen or utility truck or using something hardened, I know what I would decide when the bullets started flying

http://daimler-fighting-vehicles.co.uk/DFV-File%20Part%20D0010-Historic%20Wehrmacht.pdf

 

They were ( as far as I am aware),quite impressed by the Bren carrier ?

 

After the successful counter-offensive of 21 Jan 42 Panzerarmee Afrika believed that sufficient British tanks had been captured to equip a battalion with one company each of Honeys and Crusaders. The battalion was to be a reserve unit of army command under Lieutenant-Colonel Ramsauer.

As far as I know this never happened, there were either only sufficient Honeys to equip a company (which I doubt, since they would have captured a lot of Crusaders from 1 Armoured Division), or the Crusaders were seen as too troublesome to bother, considering that Panzerarmee only had 'indirect' access to spares.

Here is some info on the Honeys with the Kampfstaffel of Panzerarmee HQ:

Feldgrau.net • View topic - DAK kampfstaffel order of battle

All the best

Andreas

 

Wow, what a strange sight, notice how the Jerrys coverd the front with surplus tank tracks for added protection!

 

Not content with just using captured equipment they had to mate parts from different countries.



6 pages of British A13 Cruiser tanks used by the Germans mainly in the Soviet Union in 1941.

Beutepanzer UK A13 MkII