Grandad was a POW. 4459605 Richard JAMES, DLI

Dear Alexandra,
I would love to find a similar record for my Grandad who was also in Stalag 344/VIIIB Lamsdorf. He was originally a POW in P.G. 206 Necero, a hospital as he was wounded when captured. I have worked out it is highly likely he was captured at the first advance of the Mareth Line, North Arfica. He would have been kept in a camp in the desert until he was taken to the P.G Hospital Camp 206 near Naples. Likely he travelled there overseas from Tripoli. There is also a chance he was moved to a Hospital in Milan, which was bombed and then onward to a Hospital in Bergamo. I would really like to find his hospital records and POW records. That record card you found is amazing. His fingerprint and photo. We have no photos of my Grandad in the war so finding a similar record would be wonderful. What search terms did you use to find the record? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Karen

 

Hi,

You will attract more attention by posting your message in a standalone topic and if you provide your grandfather’s name and army service number. I’ll ask a Mod to move it.

Your archive search will depend on the nationality of your grandfather. If he was in the British Army his POW Index card ought to be held by UK National Archives as part of WO416 series of documents.

Discovery | The National Archives

As a starting point - whatever his nationality - you ought to make an enquiry with Red Cross in Switzerland when their next enquiry window opens. It is a free service and you get a reply within 6/8 weeks by email.

Requests for information about people held during Spanish Civil War or Second World War: Quarterly limit reached

Forum member vitellino may be able to assist re his time in Italy.

Good Luck

Steve

 

If you need a copy of the form for the Red Cross Records I can sort you out with one - that way you can have it all filled in and ready to submit as soon as the website opens.

 

Welcome Karen, and very good luck with your research. You’re in the best place for help and advice, as you can already see.

 

Give me his full name, Karen, and his service number if you have it, and I'll see what I can find regarding his time in Italy.

Why do you think he was moved from Nocera to the hospitals in Milan and Bergamo?

Regards,

Vitellino

 

Hi Vitellino,

WOW Thank you so much. My Grandad was British and from Newcastle North East England. Full name: Richard James; His army number was 4459605. He was a Corporal. Records show he went missing between 19th and 21st March 1943. He was with the 6th Battalion, Durham Light Infantry. I have been reading around his time in North Africa, I think his battalion linked up as part of the 50th Northumbrian Division, 8th Army (excuse me if I am getting any of the links incorrect, please feel free to correct me where necessary). His POW number was 35604, he was transferred to Stalag 344/VIIIB Lamsdorf. I am not sure of the dates.

I found some background on the Internet regarding Operation Pugilist, which I think is the operation where he was wounded and captured either by Italians or Germans (but handed over to the Italians). It looks like he will have been kept in camps in the desert and then moved to Tripoli where he was transferred to the P.G Military Hospital 206, Necaro. I have read that he may have been transferred to a civilian hospital in Milan due to the severity of his injuries. However, that hospital was bombed in an air raid and survivors were transferred to pg 201 Bergamo. Please note, I may be wrong in all this but it makes sense against some dates I have (will post these details when I find them again).

I will definitely read all the messages here and take up any advice. I will contact the Red Cross.

Extract below taken from online resource at URL: Battle of Mareth, 20-26 March 1943

Operation Pugilist
The 50th Division (Operation Pugalist) attack began at 2145 hours on 20 March with an artillery bombardment. The infantry then had to move off at 2315 hours. They had to cross the Wadi Zigzaou, a strong defensive position that had been improved by the Axis forces and was defended by a series of strongholds. Their attack began well. On the left the 8th Durham Light Infantry, 151st Brigade, captured the Ouerzi strongpoint. On the right the 9th Durham Light Infantry, 151st Brigade, captured the Ksiba Ouest strongpoint. However this attack was only conducted by a single brigade, leaving it vulnerable to counterattack. Finally, to the left of the main attack, the 7th Green Howards from the 69th Brigade advanced through the German anti-tank lines to screen the left flank of the attack.

The plan began to go wrong early in the morning of 21 March. Tanks of the 50th Royal Tank Regiment were meant to cross the Wadi to support the infantry, but the plan didn’t work. The idea was for sappers to blow a gap in the near side of the wadi. The tanks would drive down into the wadi, drop fascines into the water, and cross to the far side. Unfortunatly the bottom of the wadi was softer than expected and the tanks soon got bogged down. The lead tank got stuck in the water, forcing other tanks to try and move around it, with poor results. The tanks then came under heavy artillery fire, and only four Valentine tanks made it across. The attempt was abandoned at first light and the rest of the regiment retreated to its starting point.

For most of 21 March the two battalions in the lodgement came under attack by the Italians, supported by the 90th Light Africa Division. The British defenders managed to hold on throughout the day, and after dark the 5th East Yorkshire Regiment, 69th Brigade, crossed into the lodgement, and attacked to the right, taking the Ksiba Est strongpoint next to the coast. The rest of 50th RTR's tanks also made it across.

21 March also saw the New Zealand Corps conduct its first attack on the Tebaga Gap, but without success. After being detected they had been ordered to advance as quickly as possible, and had moved throughout the day on 20 March. The going was more difficult than had been expected, and they weren’t able to attack on the night of 20-21 March as expected. Instead they made contact with the defenders of the gap on the afternoon of 21 March, but the Saharan Group had a strong defensive position and was able to hold its ground. On the same day Messe ordered the German 164th Light Africa Division to move to Tebaga to reinforce the defences, having only now realised that an entire division and an armoured brigade was heading for the gap.

On the night of 21-22 March the 9th Durham Light Infantry advanced from Kisba Ouest and captured the Ksiba strongpoint to the north and the Ouerzi strongpoint to the north-west. On the left flank the 6th Durham Light Infantry crossed the Wadi and captured The Zarat Sudest and the Ouerzi Ouest strongpoints, to the west and north of the Ouerzi strongpoint. At this point the attack appeared to be going quite well, with seven strongpoints now in British hands, but the lodgement was still mainly held by infantry. The 50th Royal Tank Regiment made another attempt to cross the wadi during the night, but this also failed.

The night of 21-22 March also saw the first large scale attack on the Tebaga line. The 25th and 26th New Zealand Battalions attacked towards an old Roman wall that had been turned into a powerful defensive position. Supported by a heavy artillery bombardment, the infantry managed to break through the lines. There was briefly a chance for an armoured breakthrough, but the command of the 8th Armoured Brigade didn't want to attack in the dark. By the time it was light the first German troops had arrived, and 22 March was filled with a series of generally unsuccessful attacks.

On 22 March rain partially filled the Wadi Zigzaou and also kept the Desert Air Force grounded. Messe used the 15 Panzer Division to counterattack against the 50th Division break in. The attack began at 0145 hours, and hit the left flank of the British lodgement. The 151st Brigade was slowly forced out of its lodgements, and back towards the edge of the Wadi. On the right the 5th East Yorkshires were expelled from the Ksiba East strongpoint.

On the night of 22-23 March the British position in the lodgement became increasingly vulnerable, and General Nichols, commander of the 50th Division, realised that the position was about to be overrun. He asked General Leese, his corps commander, for permission to withdraw. Leese woke Montgomery early on 23 March, and got his permission to withdraw. All surviving tanks and infantry pulled back across to the British side of the Wadi Zigzaou. The frontal assault on the Mareth Line had failed.
_____________
Thank you for all of your help with this. I am finding it fascinating. We do not have pictures of my Grandad and I am scouring everywhere to try and get one. He was a barber by trade so I have even tried searching with related search terms. He was an amputee. He was repatriated in May 1944, and spent 4 days at Stannington Hospital that acted as a Military Hospital for orthapaedics. He got a prosthetic limb fitted and was sent on his way, with £5 and a bus warrant to get him from Morpeth to Newcastle!

Karen

 

Hi Vitellino,

Apologies I have posted your reply to the wrong message I think. Just a newbie on this site and not used to it. Also surges of excitement as I did not expect to get as many replies.

So longer reply above but in short.

Full Name: Richard James
Service Number: 4459605
He was recorded as a Prisoner of war in Italy on 9th May 1943.

I think he would qualify to move from Necaro to Milan for surgery and I have read the Necaro Hospital did not do surgeries. I am not sure when he would have lost his leg but I remember him telling me about him waking up in a POW hospital and trying to get out the bed, then falling because he didnt realise his leg was gone. I then read that the Hospital in Milan got bombed in an air raid and survivors were transferred to Bergamo.

Thank you Karen

 

Thank you so much. This is amazing. I posted a question hoping to find a photo of my Grandad through searching similar to another member (he mentioned the Russian archives). I am delighted at the feedback and I am happy if my question gets moved.

 

Hello,

I really would like a form. Please let me know if you need any information. I look forward to hearing back from you. This is all just so exciting. So grateful for everyones help.

 

Hi,

Here is the link to his POW record in WO416 -

Name: Richard James . Date of Birth: 09/03/1917 . Place of Birth: Newcastle . ... | The National Archives

It would appear that you will be able to order copies of the documents - best to ask for a price quote first.

If you have not yet requested his army service papers from UK MOD you can order via this link.

Get a copy of military service records

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

Thanks for this. I got this record but as you can see there are lots of unspecified fields. Do you think there will be a chance of a photograph on the other records? Can you view them in person? Thanks Karen

 

Hi,

The unspecified fields mean the information isn’t recorded.

I obtained my fathers POW index card about 10 years ago (before the digitisation process started and you could request a copy under FOI). I only received 2 pages - the back and front of an index card - rather than the more detailed card with a photo attached. His card hasn’t been digitised yet.

I’ve no idea on the chances of a photo being in the National Archives or elsewhere. I’ve never received one of my father and I have his service record, Red Cross papers, German Index Card and returning POW Questionnaire.

You can attend National Archives in person to view records. You can only search for the returning POW Questionnaire there.

National Archives - Kew Tips?

Steve

 

Welcome to the forum, you will get a lot of help here. Not sure that I will be able to add much. but, for what it's worth, one small point is that the casualty lists state that he went missing 21/23.3.43. There are 40 others of the 6 Bn mentioned on the same list.

Newcastle Journal, Friday, June 2, 1944

 

Don't know if you are aware but Ancestry have the 1942 war diaries for 6 Bn, Durham Light Infantry, not the period in question, but may help expand your understanding.

 

Yes I had read that his record isn't digitised yet. I think I will have to go and look at the records in person at some point. I noticed Prof John had photos of bergamo with a few amputees photographed with him. My grandad isn't on those photos. Do you know if there is anywhere I could get similar photos? Collections? Thanks again Steve, Karen

 

Sorry I can’t help re the photo query.

Vitellino (Janet) may have some insight.

Good Luck

Steve

 

Hi Tony56,
Thank you for letting me know. 1942 war diaries will be useful as he served from 1940 - 44 when he was medically discharged. I feel as though I see him in my minds eye when I read some documents. He died when I was 7 but I have some very vivid memories of him. He was a brilliant man and great with kids. He had puppets in his barber shop after the war to entertain the kids when they came in for a haircut. Got some funny stories of his post war days from local residential Facebook pages. It has been wonderful researching about him.

 

Thank you very much Steve.

 

Karen, the hospital was at NOCERA.

The hospital in Milan - H207 - was bombed on 13 August 1943. The Senior British Officer there, Major Peter Oldfield, SAS, had also been transferred from Nocera. Fifteen men were pulled out alive, one of whom would have been your grandfather. This information comes form Oldfield's obituary in The Daily Telegraph on 29 July 2002.

Was a reason given in the service record for this transfer, or was it simply that the hospital, like the all southern camps, had been evacuated ahead of the invasion of Sicily?

Did the information regading Bergamo come from his service record?

Vitellino

 

WOW! This is amazing! The information hasn't come from his records. It is just what I have been piecing together and what makes sense. I definitely think he got to the mareth line and was wounded. His buddy was killed through a mine and my grandad was wounded. I know that there was poor intelligence that suggested there were very few mines in the area and also miscalculations regarding the number of Germans and Italians there. There was 3 days of very bad weather, torrential rain, that caused the land to swamp and tanks couldn't get through as planned. So permission was given for the troops to withdraw and my grandad may have appeared dead so was left. I know he was in the desert a while before capture and then I have read that prisoners could remain in camps in the desert for days before moving to pow camps in Italy.

Have you got the article I could see please? Or how I can access it? I assume I could view it at a local library. I really feel this story makes sense but of course I need to check with his records. If I could find a photo of him I would be so happy and anything I find out I will post updates. I will not give up. I definitely come from good stock! Thanks for your help with this. It means so much o me and the whole of my family. Karen