Hi all, My first real post here so be gentle please! I would like to put to bed an old family story. At some point during the war my Grandfather, although being ground crew volunteered as an Air Gunner on a number of occasions when crew were short. A tall tale perhaps but it does make some sense. He had served as a Machine Gunner with the RAF Armoured Cars for 8 years in Iraq, Kurdistan and Palestine during the 1920's. I have his service record and would at first like to explore is his time with 11 Operational Training Unit. He served with them from February 1941 to July 1942. Does a member have access to the ORB to see if he is listed on any Crew Lists? Kind regards, Daniel.
Daniel, I have the No. 11 OTU ORB. It's a great document with photos of every class until late 1944. However, the only time aircrew appear is when they a) go on raids ie. the Millenium raids of May and June 1942 and b) get killed in accidents. Even in the class photos only their surnames are written beneath them. If there were two Smiths in the same class then the initial of their Christian name is added. But apart from that, entries are written ie. 6 aircraft on night navigational exercise with no aircraft serial, no crew matrix etc. And, not to put a damper on an old family story but OTU was where aircrews formed up. I would be quite surprised if a sprog pilot allowed someone to take the place of one of his gunners. Having said that, if you would like to PM me your grand dad's name and service number I'd be happy to take a look. Regards, Dave
Hi Dave, Thanks for the reply. I did a fair bit of googling and found reference to Ground Crew who were part time Air Gunners, usually men with prior experience with machine guns etc. He served with plenty of other squadrons and OTU's during the war so may well have crewed with another unit, just want to check this off to begin with. I will PM you - Cheers, Daniel
It doenst appear that I am able to PM you, perhaps because I have not made enugh posts yet? Cheers, Daniel
Hi No problem placing the details here, is there ? May mean something to someone else who likes digging, Regards, Graeme
I think the practice was widespread until up to date air gunner structured training came into being.If a crew was short of an Air Gunner,the first category of airman would be likely a squadron armourer or in dire circumstances, any appropriate groundcrew volunteer on the squadron. At the time before June 1940,air gunners would be AC2s to start with but a groundcrew tradesman might well have a higher classification.The best reference to highlight this is records of air gunners rank after June 1940...aircraft casualty returns should reveal this. The formation of OTUs did not take place until after the war started and was part of aircrew structured training.Previous training was undertaken by No 6 (Training Group) which was composed of squadrons who would soon be absorbed by BC Groups Nos 1 to 5 as fully operational bomber squadrons. Dedicated OTUs were then formed as designated OTUs within No 6 (Training) Group and No 7 (Training) Group. OTUs....structured training....some front line operations carried out but crewing would be from pupils on the course..cannot see groundcrew being asked to volunteer on a unit which would have an abundance of crews,all at some stage of their training as a crew. However absences from flying training did occur due to illness etc of individual crew members. No 11 OTU was based at Bassingbourn from 1 January 1941 with the Wellington and Anson as the training aircraft.....part of No 6 (Training) Group.
Hi Daniel, I've been through the ORB. Sorry to say your grand dad doesn't make an appearance. In the time frame he was there there were several attacks by enemy intruders, vehicle accidents and an airman walking into a prop. I've attached a page to show you how they kept records. On the Millennium raids, all crew are shown. Regards, Dave
Hi Dave, Thanks so much for looking. Its annoying that they did not list the crew for the smaller missions but what can you do! The search continues, I will move on to the next unit he was with. Kind regards, Daniel
Harry, Thanks for the additional information re the OTU, very interesting to get some background. Cheers, Daniel
Hi Dave, I was looking for some info on 11OTU as my Uncle Sgt Syd Parrott RAFVR 976645 trained in this unit in late 1940 - early 1941 before joining 75 NZ Squadron in March. The only photo I have, apart from the class photos (Course 23,23/1/41), is a photo I found in NZ pilot, Maurice McGreal's book "A Noble Chance". There is a photo printed in this book dated Nov 1940 of: (L to R) Syd, Bob Fotheringham, Maurice, Bill MacMillan, Dave Florence and Les Gore. They are standing in front of a Wellington dressed in full flying suits. The trouble is, the photo is printed in half tone and any attempt to enlarge it, just reveals its mass of dots. Is it possible that you have a better version of this photo?
Apologies for the delay in replying, Jay. I am just seeing this now. Unfortunately, I have only the same pic as you. That of course 23. I took a screen cap of the photo you are speaking about from Index If you look at several of the other photos from the same site, many suffer from this. But I also know many families of airmen who would give their proverbial right hand to get something this good. In other words, I think that had there been a better version of the print, the publishers would have used it. In case they didn't, you may wish to contact them and ask. quegeeATorconDOTnetDOTnz, replacing the obvious. Regards, Dave
