Great Grandad Prisoner of War in Japan

I dont think that database is online - re Ancestry if he was issued with an England & Wales Death Cert then its findable, but I have yet to find a death cert for someone who died overseas unless its included in a family tree, especially a military death, thats why I undertood the CWGC details were sufficient to say he died in service

TD

added:
http://www.collectionsgateway.org.uk/collections/97/grooverseas.pdf


They may be accessible via - British Overseas Army Birth, Marriage and Death Records Genealogy - FamilySearch Wiki
However Family Search is run by the Chuch of the latter Day Saints - your choice

 

Had to smile when looking at the Marriage Cert....
Father of the groom was a William Thomas Lambourne, father of the bride just Willie Thomas!

 

I did the same - just checked for my great uncle. Certificate type - Standard overseas death w GRO

 

I thought this too!

 

I’ve had a reply from the Secretary General for pow research in Japan. I’ll post her reply below. It appears they are not actual dog tags as they have the date he died engraved on them. But details below. Can’t believe the depth of the email she’s sent me and the pics so quickly!


Dear Ms. Squibb,

My name is Taeko Sasamto (Ms). I’m secretary-general of POW Research Network Japan. A staff of the British Embassy in Tokyo fowarded your e-mail to me and Yoshiko Tamura in the same organization.

As we were involved in the TV documentary regarding the 105 “dog tags” unearthed near the Osaka Castle, we have some information and materials about those “dog tags” and where your great grandfather, Mr. William Ernest Lambourne had died.

Those “dog tags” were unearthed by the Osaka Center for Cultural Heritage in December 1993. At the excavation site, American occupation forces had stationed between 1945 to 1948. But no one knew what those metal pieces were at that time.
Several years later, Mr. Eura, a researcher of the center started to research and found that the metal pieces related to British POWs who had died in Japan, as those men, whose names were engraved on the metal pieces, were buried in the Commonwealth War Cemetery in Yokohama.
However, those metal pieces were not real dog tags, because the date of their death were engraved on them. We guessed that those metal pieces had been made by the American occupation forces in order to identify the ashes of the POWs which were concentrated to Osaka. And when they evacuated in 1948, they abandoned them in the earth.

After that, we began to research where and how the POWs on the metal pieces had died, and found that they had died at Hiroshima No.4 (Mukaishima), No.5 (Innoshima), No.6 (Omine), No.7 (Okinoyama), No.8 (Motoyama), No.9 (Ohama) and No.8-D (Higashi-Misome) POW camps.

Now, your great grandfather died from beri-beri on 8th July 1943 at Hiroshima No.7 Branch Camp (Okinoyama POW Camp) . Please visit the following pages of our website.
<Deceased list by camp> POW Research Network Japan | Researches | List of Deceased POWs | List by Camp
<Commonwealth War Cemetery>
POW Research Network Japan | Researchess | List of Deceased POWs | Commonwealth War Cemetery in Yokohama

And I’m attaching some photos etc.
1) Metal pieces unearthed near the Osaka Castle (These are kept at Osaka Center for Cultural Heritage)
2) Lambourne’s “dog tag” (This seat was made by Mr. Eura)
3) Excavation site
4) The site of Okinoyama camp (Latitudes is 33°56’26.883”N, 131°13’49.150”E)

I have some documents about the condition of Okinoyama camp. If you need them, I’ll send you in the next email.

Best wishes,

Taeko Sasamoto

 

Image

 

Image

 

Anyone know how I can translate this website lol

大阪府文化財センター

 

Hi Emma
What a quick result!
The British Embassy may also know a way to have a small Poppy Cross placed on Williams stone for you.
July might be appropriate, 75 years on.....

This thread should be held up us a model example for newbies on how to go about getting the maximum help and assistance.
I think you've done ggdad proud in the way you've brought him back to a semblance of life.

No idea on that website, however Google Translate app allows you to paste Japanese text and convert to English, might be worth a try. It might be pidgin English but enough to puzzle out some idea.

Those "dog tags" in English, all similar shaped but oddly, may have been done in the camp to mark their resting place, then when removed for proper burial elsewhere these casket? tags may have been discarded as having been replaced by formal ID details.... just a guess, but if they were affixed to a cross, then I'd expect 2 holes for nails etc onto the cross. The shape of these are specifically different, but for what purpose I can't say.

If they had been done by the Japanese, that's far more trouble than I associate with WW2 treatment of PoW's - almost treat the remains with more respect than the living....
Now to copy and paste all this info into a folder for Nan and the rest of the family.

 

Good point, I’ll ask her. I’ve found an article on the lady who emailed me and she actually lives close to the Cemetary herself it seems.

Thanks, it’s been an amazing experience doing all this.

I’ve also asked if it would be possible for us to get the tag, hopefully she can help. Even though it’s not his actual dog tags he wore in action it would be something nice to have I think. Probably impossible though but I’ll certainly try! Maybe as she’s a researcher she might help me if I can provide her with pictures of him lol.

That’s the plan, going to get everything together and give it to her in a nice folder.
I didn’t think it was 75 years so that’s also a good idea.

 

They look American style dog tags

Dog tag - Wikipedia
UK Style
During World War One and Two, service personnel were issued pressed fiber identity disks, one green octagonal shaped disc, and a red round disc (some army units issued a second red round disk to be attached to the service respirator). The identity disks were hand stamped with the surname, initials, service number and religion of the holder and if in the Royal Air Force, the initials RAF. The disks were worn around the neck on a 38" length of cotton cord, this was often replaced by the wearer with a leather bootlace. One tag was suspended below the main tag


US Style



TD

added
As my Dad always said "If you don't ask you don't get"

 

I’m guessing as it’s part of their countries heritage and history they probably won’t give them up easily.
I wonder how many of the families of the other tags are aware of this or if any have tried to get them.

Would most soldiers actual dog tags be buried/cremated with their remains?

 

Just noticed that a chap with my surname died the day after William, on the Hakodate Main Camp List, now in Yokohama CC8....

 

My husbands friend who used to be in the Royal Navy said that when a soldier died they would remove the tag round their neck to give it back to their regiment people and then a smaller tag would be put round their toe as identification, I wonder if it would have been used for this

 

Well done Emma.
Tim

 

This has turned into quite an amazing thread Emma. Wonderful results for you and the family.

 

Your definitely right about the CWGC details being enough for Service Records applications TD.

Like Owen, I could not remember how I applied for the Overseas Certs I have. But they were searchable by index back in 2005 when we got granddad's. I have an image of one of the index pages, which won't help Emma sadly, from when I ordered a certificate from GRO:

 

I've thoroughly enjoyed dropping into this thread and am really pleased that you've got such a brilliant outcome!

Jules

 

Well she replied again and like I thought it seems I probably won’t be able to ‘have’ the tag, although she is going to speak to the man who researched them and ‘see what he can do’
She said we could go there and view it though. She sent me a picture of roughly where the camp/coal mine once were which are now factories. And a very detailed report of the condition of the camp including a couple of diaries which are very interesting to read.
I’ve attached a snippet of the report, it’s 10 pages in total.

5.30am and I was up until 1am looking at stuff, who needs sleep!