Guards Armoured Division

Discussion in 'The Brigade of Guards' started by 4th wilts, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    was the household cavalry an integral part of the guards armd div.i understood british armd divs had an armd tank reconisance regt.in the case of this diviion i believe the welsh guards were the armd recon regt,using cromwell tanks.can anyone help.yours,4th wilts.




    edited title, from abbreviation to full
     
  2. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I dont know Lee, but I have seen action with the GAD on several occasions.
    Great lads!
     
  3. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    there were other recon regts using armd cars eg;the inns of court regt,was there not,independent i mean.these units were corps troops i believe.yours,lee.
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Household Cavalry XXX Corps Recce I think.
    Guards Armd were all Foot Guards regiments.
    never understood why they did that to Foot Guards.
    Why not stick the Household Cavalry in tanks & let Foot Guards be foot soldiers?
    You quite right 2nd Bn Welsh Guards were recce in Cromwells.
     
  5. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i was reading that the welsh guards,in cromwells,did 100 miles in a day after the crossing of the seine,in which so many fine men from my neck of the woods died.apparentley this dash made george patton look over his shoulder.perhaps british tanks were better than i previously thought.yours,4th wilts.
     
  6. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Guards Armd were all Foot Guards regiments.
    never understood why they did that to Foot Guards.
    Why not stick the Household Cavalry in tanks & let Foot Guards be foot soldiers?

    I'm currently reading 'Our Armoured Forces' written by Lt. Gen. Sir Giffard LeQuesne Martel a great tank man and Commander Royal Armoured Corps (CRAC) between 1940-1942. In it he goes into the formation of the Guards Armd Div.
    All of the existing Cavalry regiments had already been converted to armoured formations in either tanks or armoured cars. So selected infantry regiments were sought.
    In April 1941 we began to consider our future expansion. Our five Armoured Divisions and three Army Tank Brigades (21st, 25th and 31st) were well launched and we could now expand further. The first problem that arose was whether we should form these new formations ab initio on cadres supplied by existing Royal Armoured Corps units, or whether we should take existing infantry formations and convert them into RAC formations. We pressed for the latter, because we did not consider that the existing RAC units could spare any personnel suitable to send as cadres. This principle was adopted. The first decision arrived at was to form a Guards armoured division, but it was not reached without a good deal of trouble. The War Office wanted to insist that the Guardsmen should leave the Guards and join the Royal Armoured Corps. We could see no necessity for this. We all agreed that the Guards go to extremes in these matters. Men belonging to the Grenadier Guards cannot go into the Coldstream Guards, etc., etc. In this way they handicap themselves unnecessarily. But there was no reason why the Brigade of Guards should not supply Guardsmen to form Guards armoured regiments. The War Office, however, remained completely opposed to forming a new armoured division from the Guards unless they became part and parcel of the Royal Armoured Corps. They would obviously make a magnificent armoured division and that was all that really mattered, but we had considerable difficulty before we obtained War Office sanction for a Guards armoured division which would always be supplied and manned by Guardsmen. As soon as this had been settled the Guards went to work with their usual enthusiasm and efficiency. Major-General Sir Oliver Leese was selected to command them. There was great competition to be in the Armoured Division and they got their pick. They started going to our training regiments in June. It was quite exhilarating to see the intense keenness with which they attended these classes. The Guards were, of course, determined to have the best armoured division. Anyone who did not seem to be grasping the work was changed, and they had plenty of excellent material to pick from. In this they had, of course, a great advantage. There was never any doubt as to the future success of this division. When they had found their feet, the Guards formed their own training centre for their recruits. This relived the pressure on our own training centres. The logical course would then have been to form a holding unit of Guardsmen trained in RAC work who could flow to any Guards armoured regiment, but this was resisted. The esprit de corps of the regiment was greater than that of the Brigade of Guards.
    So it seems that existing infantry regiments with a very high esprit de corps were chosen to become armoured. As the RAC could not 'cherry pick' the best men to recruit into the tanks from the whole of the army, and it was thought that the pick of the volunteers were already going to the Navy and the RAF. It was considered the easiest way to obtain the best possible men into the tank corps.
     
  7. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    noticed the term cherry pickers in this post bod.this is my memory here,so forgive me if i am wrong but i believe the 11th hussars had that nickname,and they may have been the 7th armd divs armd reconisance regt.yours,4th wilts.
     
  8. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    noticed the term cherry pickers in this post bod.this is my memory here,so forgive me if i am wrong but i believe the 11th hussars had that nickname,and they may have been the 7th armd divs armd reconisance regt.yours,4th wilts.
    Correct on all counts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Hussars
     
  9. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    i was reading that the welsh guards,in cromwells,did 100 miles in a day after the crossing of the seine,in which so many fine men from my neck of the woods died.apparentley this dash made george patton look over his shoulder.perhaps british tanks were better than i previously thought.yours,4th wilts.
    I think that British Tanks seem to get "Bad Press" and from what I can see not all of it was justified Lee. Maybe this stems from the Desert war but I thought that the tanks used later in the war were better.
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Thanks for explaining the "why" Foot Guards were chosen.
    I have on them is from The Grenadier Guards 1939-1945.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i have in some posts beguiled british and american tanks,but i have read some interesting posts on the sherman tank thread.yours,4th wilts.
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From The Sydney Morning Herald, March 7, 1942

    GUARDS NOW ARMOURED
    Still Trained First as Infantry
    Our Own Correspondent

    LONDON, March 6. -
    The Brigade of Guards has been partly converted into an armoured force. They include the famous Household Cavalry which have delighted visitors to London with peacetime ceremonial, and the Foot Guards, some of which have been in every important British campaign since 1660.

    Troops of the GRENADIERS, COLDSTREAM, SCOTS, IRISH, and WELSH GUARDS have been formed into an armoured division under the command of the ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS.

    Recruits, however, still go through the usual Guards’ school, where they are taught infantry drill and discipline before being drafted to their new work.

    Covenanter tanks, Bren carriers, “dingo” scout cars, British and American armoured cars, transport and supply vehicles, and anti-tank artillery comprise the main equipment of the division.

    I have visited several establishments of the Guards armoured division, where I found the troops carrying out all forms of their new work with snappy Guards efficiency, which looked smart, but overdone and somewhat unnecessary for mechanical warfare.

    The King has sent a message to the Brigade saying: “I am proud to think that my household troops are to take their place among the most powerful units of modern warfare. I am sure that it will not be long before they have acquired in their new role the fame which they have rightly enjoyed as infantry for centuries past.”

    —​

    HEIGHT STANDARD NOT CHANGED

    LONDON, March 6. [1942] -
    The Guards’ height standard has not been changed.

    The divisional commander states that every man must be fighting fit and thoroughly trained to the Guards’ standard of basic soldiering, whether he be a clerk or a batman and during the severe training must live a monastic life. He adds that he is determined particularly to make the standard of maintenance and recovery in battle as least equal to that of the Germans.

    The mechanised Foot Guards, who had previously discarded the traditional peacetime tunic and bearskin cap for battledress and beret, have now added a crash helmet. The HOUSEHOLD CAVALRY, even before the war, had been partly mechanised except for ceremonial troops.

    The division includes anti-tank, anti-aircraft, and other ancillary units.

    Screen Shot 2015-08-08 at 17.37.01.png Screen Shot 2015-08-08 at 17.37.40.png
     
  13. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From The Glasgow Herald, March 6, 1942

    BEARSKINS GIVE PLACE TO CRASH HELMETS
    The Guards Armoured Division
    From Our Special Correspondent

    An armoured division has been formed from the HOUSEHOLD BRIGADE. Its tank and motorised battalions are drawn from all five regiments of the BRIGADE OF GUARDS, its armoured-car component from the linked regiment of the HOUSEHOLD CAVALRY formed from the LIFE GUARDS and the BLUES.

    Its ancillary arms are, of course, as in the case of other armoured divisions, supplied by the specialist corps - Gunners, Engineers, R.A.O.C., and R.A.S.C. The division is equipped with the Covenanter cruiser tank.

    In the course of a recent visit to the division I saw something of the enthusiasm with which the Guards have taken is mechanised soldiering.

    A lieutenant-colonel commanding a tank battalion of the IRISH GUARDS said that to a Guardsman “life holds nothing better” than tank soldiering. The close team work that form of soldiering entails has enabled officers and men to get to know each other possibly better than they have done since the last war.


    Fighting Job for All
    Officers take their share of the daily maintenance of their vehicles, and have to be as technically proficient in every sense as their men. From the C.O. downwards every officer has a fighting job to do in a tank - and there is no room in a tank for a man who is not up to his job. At some time or other every member of a tank crew has the lives of the other members in his hands.

    The mechanised Guardsmen wear berets when in overalls on maintenance duty and crash helmets when in their tanks.

    The berets bear the regimental badges and the helmets a painted representation of the particular plume of the regiment’s bearskin. But there is no distinction in walking-out dress between Guardsmen of the armoured division and the Guardsmen of the infantry battalions.

    The Guards armoured division is not, as the mechanised regiments of cavalry of the line are, part of the ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS. They remain - and jealously intend to remain - part of the BRIGADE OF GUARDS. Convinced that as infantry they were better than any other infantry in the world, they are determined to prove themselves matchless as mechanised soldiers.


    [Height Standard Remains
    The Guards’ standard of height is not to be relaxed for the mechanised battalions, except possibly for some already highly skilled technicians. (The big men of the Brigade fit easily into tanks).

    Recruiting for the infantry and the motorised and armoured battalions has not been separated. Generally a recruit will be allowed to choose which sort of battalion he goes to. The GRENADIER the COLDSREAM, the SCOTS, the IRISH, and WELSH GUARDS all have infantry battalions and battalions in the armoured division.

    The divisional commander is a Major-General still in his forties who has been a COLDSTREAMER for a quarter of a century and has commanded a battalion of the COLDSTREAMS. His headquarters office has coloured prints of COLDSTREAMERS of the past on its walls - bewigged men in bearskins - toy replicas of the COLDSTREAMS’ drums on his desk, and models of British and German tanks on shelves and tables.

    Pride in Tradition
    His whole purpose, as his room indicated, is to combine the traditions of the Brigade, of which he is fiercely proud, with the needs of modern war. The Brigade, he said, had been in every British campaign since its first regiment was formed (and which is the firs is a matter for the GRENADIERS and the COLDSTREAM to fight out) and must not now lag behind in methods of warfare.

    I saw tanks of the IRISH GUARDS go past, I saw a company of the GRENADIERS of the armoured division on parade, I rode in the SCOTS GUARDS’ tanks, and I saw the WELSH GUARDS at wireless and gunnery practice. All of them seem to a non-Guardsman to have acquired the efficiency of our best mechanised units without losing any of the panache of the Brigade.


    Screen Shot 2015-08-08 at 17.43.19.png Screen Shot 2015-08-08 at 17.43.32.png
     
  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Illustrated London News 04 April 1942

    "Armoured Warfare Today"
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    I have to chuckle a bit at the bit about how the height requirement for the Guards would not be relaxed and they fit easily into tanks. It's a good thing they weren't assigned Comets - some postwar tests showed that taller loaders really had a harder time than shorter men.
     
  16. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    The height requirement was 5ft 10 and over in 1939.

    By 1940 it had apparently dropped an inch ...
    Liverpool Echo 19 June 1940, ref Irish Guards recruitment
    Liverpool Echo 19 June 1940.png

    I love the way this states only 5ft. 8 1/2in.
    Similar considerations were also applied to other regiments from time to time depending, I'd imagine, on levels of recruitment.

    Recuitment in the Guards
    Scots Guards: Newspaper clippings
     

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