Gunner Charles Henry Lawrenson Royal Artillery

My paternal great uncle Charles Henry Lawrenson, Gunner with RA, service number
893371 was a prisoner of war.

He was initially captured and was an Italian POW, held at Camp 68 Vetralla.
It was then then said he escaped with two other allied soldiers and was recaptured and sent to Stalag 344 Lamsdorf. His POW number 221570.
Little is known about his return back to the UK.

He suffered night terrors and it was then known that he, like many had been tortured as a POW. He would never elaborate further. Is there any way to find out more about his time as a POW?
Many Thanks

Paula

 

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

Your best bet is to apply to Red Cross for copies of his records held there. You need to be quick off the mark when the window opens in January as past windows closed after 72/96 hours.

Good Luck

Steve

Requests for information about people held during the Spanish Civil War or the Second World War: Quarterly limit reached

 

UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945
Name: C H Lawrenson
Rank: Gunner
Army Number: 893371
Regiment: Royal Artillery
POW Number: 221570
Camp Type: Stalag
Camp Number: 344
Camp Location: Lambinowice, Poland
Record Office: Royal Artillery (Field) Record Office, Foots Cray, Sidcup, Kent
Record Office Number: 5

Heres a site that you might be able to add info to - NAMES - I notice one of our members provided details of POW's from Italian camps.

A general search for Stalag 344 or Lamsdorf willl bring up a lot of details. The Great Escape of course was the famous film based on stories from 344

TD

 

Thank You

 

Royal Artillery attestatiion:

 

That’s fab info....we did not realise he had served in Western Desert. I have plenty of information now to go on and Thank You all for your help xx

 

I think I may have 7 Medium Regiments war diary at home. Give me a few days and send me a reminder if I don't post on this thread again - I've no phone line at home so I'm a bit intermittent with the forum.

 

Paula

2 things

1. obtain his service records (as well as the POW record as above) link - Request records of deceased service personnel - GOV.UK this will tell you about his military life prior to his becoming a POW, and will help tell you how/where he was captured

2. This web site The Crusader Project was created by another member from this site and should contain information about the war in North Africa at the time your paternal great uncle was there

TD

 

Hello Cheekychops,

What an interesting post.

Camp PG 68 was officially closed as a Prisoner of War Camp on 3 January 1943. During the month of December the prisoners were sent to other camps in Italy as follows (all data from www.campifascisti.it):

850 ( including all the white South Africans ) to PG 52 Coreglia Ligure
500 to PG 73 Carpi di Modena
500 (including all the Australians and New Zealanders plus the single Chinese prisoner ) to PG 57 Grupignano
500 others, including the Cypriots, to PG 65 Gravina
220 to Acquapendente to build the new camp there - PG 10
Those who were ill and undergoing treatment to PG 54 Fara in Sabina. They were the last to leave.

The official documentation for Vetralla contains the record of only one escapee - Albert Edward Penny from HM submarine Oswald, referred to elsewhere on this site, whose bid for freedom was successful. In fact, such escapes from Italian prisoner of war camps before the Armistice of 8 September are said to be very few and far between ( I haven't verified this but will do in the future.) Hence I conclude that your relative escaped with two others from one of the above camps to which he had been sent (you will need his records to find out which, as has already been said) at the time of the Armistice, was recaptured and sent to Lamsdorf.

Your point about the torture of POWs is an interesting one. Each camp had a Camp Leader, chosen from among the prisoners and in the case of a non-officers' camp, usually a sergeant. He reported on the camp conditions to the International Red Cross or Protecting Power when they visited - usually on a two to three month basis between September 1942 and May 1943 - and would certainly have passed on any information which had come to his notice about ill treatment of prisoners.

If this ill treatment was regarded as a serious matter a War Crimes Enquiry would have been opened up by the Judge Advocate General in the immediate post - war period. I am currently researching PG 52 and in this camp there were several instances of ill-treatment of prisoners whilst they were being punished for minor offences.

I will now check out on the National Archives website to see if there are any War Crimes files relating to any of the above camps to which your relative might have been sent on leaving Vetralla. I am not an expert on German camps but there was the same system of camp leader/Red Cross inspectorate etc. I will also check to see if there is a RedCross/ Protecting Power Report.

When you obtain your relative's Service Records please let us know which other Italian camp he was sent to.

Vitellino

 

Speaking to my relatives granddaughter today, I asked for further info. She is convinced that he was subsequently moved from Stalag 344 Lamsdorf into another part of the Stalag Camp. She remembers him on the rare times speaking of his ill treatment, and he said it started when he refused to salute or formally acknowledge a German officer. She is sure he said was moved to part of camp where there were Hungarian POW’s and sick??
Guess I have a lot to go digging with.
Thank You

 

British Artillery Regiments
7 Med Regt

India 1938
N Africa 1939-43 - W Desert Force (13 Corps Troops), GHQ, 5 AGRA
Greece 1941 - ANZAC Corps Troops
Crete 1941 - 14 Bde
Alamein 10/42 - 30 Corps Troops
Sicily 1943 - 5 AGRA, 1 Cdn Div
D-Day 6/44 - att 50 Inf Div
Normandy 1944 - 5 AGRA
NW Europe 1944-5 - 5 AGRA

TD

 

I have checked out the NA info. for Italy, though it doesn't now appear as though the ill- treatment took place here. There is a Red Cross report for Vetralla plus ill- treatment of POW reports for all the other camps to which he might have been sent.

A large number of work camps were associated with Stalag 334. When you have your relative's Service Record checkout on the National Archives website to see if there are any ill-treatment records for his work camp.

Vitellino

Have edited with details of War Crimes files- there seem to be only two :

National Archives:

Reference:


WO 311/187


Description:


Stalag 344, Camp E3, Blechhammer, Germany: ill-treatment of British POWs



Reference:


WO 208/4681


Description:


Stalags 8A Gorlitz, 8B Sagan, 8C Teschen and 344 Lamsdorf, Germany: ill-treatment of POWs

 

He had scars over his chest, arms & back where he was beaten. He suffered from severe PTSD & night terrors.
The information you have given me is fabulous and I am determined to certainly find out more.
I am sending off for his records today to MOD and will apply to the Red Cross for any further information in January.

 

Hi Cheekychops.

Just a bit of something that may be of help.

Stalag V111 B / 344 was the administration camp for numerous sub camps = arbeitskommando camps = arbeits lagers / work camps in the surrounding area. In the latter part of the war these camps were mostly numbered by the prefix of the letter 'E' for English. For example BAB 20 became E 794, & BAB 21 became E 793. In some instances relatives researching details find that their research subject is documented as being at Stalag V111 B / 344 whereas, ' in some instances ' they are actually at a sub camp. POW's were known to have been moved around the various locations.
There was a lazaret /hospital at Stalag 344. There was also a lazaret at Cosel for the work camps in the Cosel area which also came under the administration of Stalag 344. There are records for ill treatment of pow's in the Blechhammer area.

When he speaks of ill treatment, does he mean individually or collectively. As the neglect towards the well being of the group was common place in a lot of these work camps, especially when they were not in receipt of Red Cross food parcels, they resorted to eating cats, dogs, rodents, grass snakes, potato peelings, anything that they could catch or steal. As they received very little food from the Germans, usually 250 grams of bread / brot - which was very often an Erstatz bread, meaning substitute bread which was often extended with substances such as sawdust, and one litre of soup a day. Also at these work camps they were working along side other nationalities.

 

Hi Cheekychops.

Just seen your latest, you must have written it when I was writing my first reply.

So, he was beaten individually. Just a maybe, - some of his scars could also have been from lice and fleas, and boils. As these chaps were plagued by lice, and many had problems with boils for years due to their poor diet.

POW's were beaten and struck by guards in the work camps, and there were some pow's that were shot. At least two were shot at BAB 20 / E 794. These were, Private Joseph Gribben, on 27th March 1942 & Gunner John Miller on 9th May 1942.

I hope you find this of relevant interest, and hope you gain further knowledge from your enquiries.

 

Hi,

You could also request a member to look up his POW Liberation Questionnaire at UK National Archives. Some - not all - POW’s completed one on arrival in UK.

He may have commented on I’ll treatment in his Questionnaire. They are not accessible via internet but a kind member may look it up for you at Kew.

Steve

 

To try and clarify some locations I have transposed some details from a document from TNA (WO 224 205)

Stalag 8 A Gorlitz Lat 51 07 53 Long 15 00 20

Stalag 344 Lamsdorf Lat 50 34 12 Long 17 33 44

Stalag 8 B Teschen Lat 49 45 06 Long 18 37 40

Stalag 8 C Kunau/Sprottau/Sagan Lat 51 33 00 Long 15 12 00

Local work camps Lat 50 17 20 Long 18 16 12
50 19 08 18 16 35
50 22 08 18 18 16
50 21 40 18 19 19

Construction sites Heydebreck Lat 50 20 46 Long 18 12 48

Blechhamer Lat 50 17 20 Long 18 12 48
50 22 06 18 18 30
50 21 36 18 19 12

There are also numerous hospitals in this section of German Military District VIII

Military District VIII (Breslau)
Stalag VIII-A Görlitz
Stalag VIII-B Lamsdorf
Stalag VIII-C Sagan
Stalag VIII-D Teschen
Stalag VIII-E/308 Neuhammer
Stalag VIII-F Lamsdorf
Oflag VIII-A Kreuzburg/Oppeln
Oflag VIII-B Silberberg
Oflag VIII-C Juliusburg
Oflag VIII-D/Tittmoning Castle
Oflag VIII-E Johannisbrunn
Oflag VIII-F Mährisch-Trübau
Oflag VIII-G Weidenau/Freiwaldau
Oflag VIII-H/H Oberlangendorf/Sternberg
Oflag VIII-H/Z Eulenberg/Roemerstadt


TD

 

There are accounts of appalling treatment in an Italian camp in this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00KYDSL1S/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o00_?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It seems it was mostly down to the particular commandant

 

Correction, I did have the regimental war diary before I formatted the hard drive with it on.

 

Drew - as you dont have much happening at the moment I guess a quick trip to TNA is on the cards then



TD