Halifax crash in Germany, maybe 35 Sqdn. Help wanted

Hello,

first, I would like to introduce myself. My Name is Matthias, 46 years old and I´m new here, ´ve just logged into the board.
With a few friends, I explore the history of the German airfield Kirchhellen, the airwar and losses in our area.

In this work, we found a few old photos of a plane Crash in the area. We are now trying to learn more about the fate of the aircraft and the Crew.
Unfortunately, we do not have much informations. I have a few photos and hope that this will help in the Investigation. There are parts of the code and the Serial number visible.
Where the plane crashed is known. This was next to the river Lippe, the site is located between Gahlen and Schermbeck. Longitude and altitude (51°40´14.64 "N / 6°53´2.60 "E) are approximately known. Maybe +/- 2 km down or up the river.
What I´ve heard from a witness: The fire was extinguished by the firefighters with extinguishing water from the river Lippe. A Crew member shall have lain dead on the other side of the river in the Meadow. The parachute was open. It was then assumed that Crew member was caught with his parachute on the aircraft. It should then have been thrown on the ground at impact on the other side of the river. About the other Crew members is not yet known to us.
Our Information on the plane are the following (what we believe to recognize at the aircraft):
Aircraft: Halifax
Aircraft code: TL-K
Serial number: L9???
Unit: 35 Sqdn.
Crash Location: Gahlen, by the river Lippe.

Ok, that´s it. I hope I have expressed myself correctly. School days Long ago. It my Report is wrong here, please set it to the collect place in the Forum.

Best regards
Matthias

 

Welcome to the forum, viel Glück mit der Suche!

(Es gibt übrigens auch deutschsprachige Mitglieder hier, die bei Übersetzungsschwierigkeiten gerne aushelfen)

 

Obviously you have identified TL as being the Squadron Code for 35 Squadron.
L9497 was written off after a crash in Norfolk, so not that one.
From a cursory search, I haven't found any "K" losses that match with an L**** serial.
Could the letter be an "V", "Y" or "X" or some such, similar to "K" on mangled wreckage?

35 Squadron were an RAF Pathfinder Squadron and converted to Lancaster in Spring 1944 I believe so that may reduce the time period IF it is a Halifax and not a Lancaster. Obviously, if a Lancaster then this would be from Spring 1944 onwards!

EDIT: Undoubtedly a Halifax, from the high tailplane and the early triangular shaped tailfins. In fact it doesn't even seem to have the dorsal mid upper turret and picture 3 seems to show a waist machine gun. This would make it one of the earliest examples, as the Halifax was only first used on operations by 35 Squadron in March 1941. The RAF roundel also seems to be an early war pattern. It is possible to also see the outline of the Merlin engines, not the later air cooled radials most commonly associated with the Halifax.

Could I suggest L9501 "Y" or L9506 or L9508 (both coded "X") and with two losses in early serials, more likely, although 9501 was a slightly earlier production aircraft. Can anyone provide better info on where these came down?

 

Thanks for the Kind words.

My thoughts to the aircraft code:
TJ = letters too tight
TI = not used
TL = 35 Sqdn.

On the fuselage to be seen black Serial number, maybe LB???, L8??? or L9???:
Halifax production with beginning Serial number L = only L9???

With the aircraft letter "V", "Y" or "X" I have not search befor, as I was of the opinion that on the fuselage end there is a "K". But I´m not sure.

Regards
Matthias

 

I am in the process of researching 35 Squadron, so I will look through my archives later today to see what I can find.

Regards

Pete

 

I will add some possible losses on here for exploration / elimination:

L9507 TL-W lost 25th July 1941 on a raid to Berlin (All crew killed) - believed to have come down in Brieselang
L9500 TL-H lost 14th August 1941 on a raid to Magdeburg (All crew killed) - believed to have come down in Andervenne
L9508 TL-X lost 2nd September 1941 on a raid to Berlin (Some crew killed / some POW)
L9503 TL-P lost 15th September 1941 on a raid to Hamburg (One crew killed / remainder POW) - believed to have come down in Revensdorf

Analysis of above 1941 losses now suggests L9508 is strongest contender

Pete

(Updated to include findings as at 16.15 on 14th February 2014)

 

Hi Pete,

thank´s. I think, I am in good Hands here!
I create two Detail shots of the photos....

Regards
Matthias

 

TL-Y L9501 was lost on 28 August 1941 on operations against Duisburg. Pilot Officer Adkins and all 7 crew were killed and buried at Reichswald Plot17 Row A per RAF Loss Cards.
More likely is TL-X L9508 on Berlin, which is not too far from Gahlen (in flying time).
Flying Officer R James and W/Op air gunner Sgt J K Young were both killed and Arthur, Oldman, Mills, Mullally and Allanson were PoW and shown as "Safe in UK" (presumably after the War ended). There may be Liberation Questionnaires or personal memoirs available.

That's my preference, but always prepared to be proved wrong (it's happened before!)

 

Matthias

I have done a quick analysis on the 1941 losses and updated by post above.

Do you know what cemetery would have been used for burial in 1941 as this may help if more details can be found on the losses.

I will have a look through the 1942 losses later to see if any of those could be possibles.

Regards

Pete

 

Hi,

I think target area central Germany, Berlin, Madeburg or all in the ruhr district (incl. Duisburg, Essen, Gelsenkirchen, Bottrop, Oberhausen, Dortmund).
South and North Germany (incl. Hamburg) I think not possible.

I searched also in the database lostbombers, but no Goal.

Pete: You´re right. Maybe it makes sense to go with some possible Crash data to the churches of the 2 towns. There is pehaps something to be found in the books of the cemeteries.

Good Job, thanks a lot! Today finish..., go home....

 

As you are probably aware, the remains would have been buried locally and then exhumed, examined and re-interred at Berlin War Cemetery after the war, so records may not exist at the local churches.

Local archives, papers and any surviving eye witnesses may help provide further clues about dates etc.

Regards

Pete

 

Hi Pete,

yes, after the war most of Crew members have been exhumed. But we are in west Germany. Berlin is 500 km east. Most RAF Crew members, who crashed in the Ruhr district are buried at the Reichswald War Cemetery (Reichswald forest war cemetey Kleve), some at Rheinberg war Cemetery. I visited both, very clean and nice cemeterys here in Germany (our own war graves in Germany are properly unkempt, shame on us).
But that has nothing to do with the current search. Is our Problem here in Germany.

I am delighted with as much help!

Regards
Matthias

 

Matthias

The reason I mentioned Berlin War Cemetery was because the two crew members who were killed in L9508 were re-interred there, which, based on your comment regarding the war cemeteries, may rule it out.

However, the photographs do suggest TL-X and at this stage I can't find any 1942 losses in the area with an L .... serial.

Regards

Pete

As an aside, you may be interested to know that my partner's grandfather was reinterred at Rheinberg

 

Correct me if I misunderstood, but isn't Gahlen closer to Berlin than the Ruhr?
An aircraft crashing in Gahlen CAN'T have been on a raid to the Ruhr as they would have massively overflown the target.
The report talks of A crewman, but if the entire crew were killed,surely that would be worth mentioning.
RAF casualties near Berlin would likely be reburied in the Berlin CWGC cemetery rather than transport many miles away.
RAF casualties near the Ruhr would be in Reichswald or Rheinburg.

The aircraft is a very early production Mk i with no mid upper turret and beam guns, making it a 1941 loss.
The aircraft letter has an open top and two arms making it H, K, V Y or X (W would be more widely spaced).

Although the report says that one crew member was found nearby (implying the other may have still been in the wreckage, they share a joint grave, so individual identification appeared not to be possible.
JAMES, ROSS. Rank: Flying Officer. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 42062. Date of Death: 03/09/1941. Age: 28.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 35 Sqdn. Awards: D F C.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 4. J. 18-19. Cemetery: BERLIN 1939-1945 WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Harold Jesse and Edith Offield James, of West Wickham, Kent.

YOUNG, JOHN KENNETH. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 947403. Date of Death: 03/09/1941. Age: 21.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 35 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 4. J. 18-19. Cemetery: BERLIN 1939-1945 WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John and Ruby Elsie Young, of Pitsmoor, Shemeld.

L9508 was hit by flak during the attack on the Tirpitz but made it back, perhaps when James earned his DFC?

 

Hi,
35 Squadron 'L' prefix Halifaxes that failed to return from Ops:-

L9499 FTR Kiel 30/6/41
L9501 FTR Duisburg 29/8/41
L9502 FTR Frankfurt 8/7/41
L9503 FTR Hamburg 16/9/41
L9508 FTR Berlin 3/9/41
L9512 FTR La Rochelle 24/7/41
L9521 FTR Leuna 9/7/41
L9527 FTR La Rochelle 24/7/41
L9560 FTR Berlin 3/9/41
L9566 Crash Landed in France returning from Torino 11/9/41
L9572 FTR Dusseldorf 25/8/41
L9600 FTR Cologne 12/12/41
L9603 FTR Essen 7/11/41

From 'The Halifax File' by Air-Britain

Rgds

Pete

 

More here, F/O James had already completed 33 operations with 102 Squadron, which London Gazette in August 1941 shows his DFC award as with 102 Squadron.
See here http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/tennants-auctioneers/catalogue-id-2804030/lot-10213671

Apparently mentioned in a book by his friend Leonard Cheshire ..... gentlemen, to your bookshelves - "Scramble!"

Someone "out there" has his medals and memorabilia.

 

Hi,

only a short and quick post...:

Gahlen, the next big town is Dorsten, 8 km east; or Essen, 30 km distance. I think that I have that might not be described clearly enough.

The Targets do not come into consideration due to the flight path (correct me if I am thinking wrong):
Kiel, Hamburg and La Rochelle, and the aircraft L9566.

Best regards.
Matthias

 

Looks like my poor grasp of German places is to blame, :sorry:
Google Maps showed me a Gahlen south of Berlin, hence my preference for the Berlin Op.
Taking it back to the Lippe and thus L9501 near Duisburg puts it (and others) back into consideration....

 

I have spent some more time on this today and thought I would document my thoughts and findings

The only 35 Squadron aircraft that I can find that were lost in 1941 and had a code letter which matched the V on the photograph were L9506 (X), L9508 (X) and L9501 (Y)

L9506 can be discounted as it crash landed in the UK

I have found a reference to say that L9508 crashed as Basdorf (nothing to confirm this); this location would make more sense in relation to James and Young being reinterred in Berlin War Cemetery rather than a Ruhr cemetery

This leaves L9501 which was lost on a raid to Duisburg on 28th August 1941, with all crew being killed. They were reinterred at Reichswald Forest Cemetery. I can't find any references to a loss location nor cause of loss.

Does anyone have any details that may confirm / disprove this option?

Regards

Pete

 

If it is L9501, the only way to confirm any more details would be to contact CWGC.

On past experience however, they won't release any details as to where the crew were originally interred before being reinterred at the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery.