Headstone does not match the service.

Discussion in 'War Grave Photographs' started by spidge, Jun 24, 2009.

  1. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Headstone does not match! Any clues why?
    F/O John Roberts (DFC) 416893 463sq buried at Durnbach Cemetery Germany.

    Roberts_J 2.jpg
    ROBERTS, JOHN (DFC)
    Flying Officer
    416893
    463sq
    RAAF
    15/03/1944
    23
    Coll. grave 4. E. 30-33.

    This headstone is not RAAF - Any clues why? Error?

    I have sent all the material to the CWGC to see what their response is!

    [​IMG]

    Quote:
    Lancaster ME573 Information

    Type Lancaster Serial Number ME573 Squadron 460 X1D JO-J Operation Stuttgart Date 1 15th March 1944 Date 2 16th March 1944
    Further Information

    "Serial Range ME554 - ME868 This aircraft was one of 250 Lancaster Mk.1s ordered from Metro- Vick May42 and delivered from Nov43 to Jun44 with merlin 22 engines initially installed up to ME639 and Merlin 24 engines from ME640 except for ME668-9 with merlin 22 engines. ME573 was a Mk.111 and was delivered to 44 Sqdn 27Dec43, joining 463 Sqdn 15Feb44. Took part in the following Key Operations: With No.44 Sqdn as KM-S, Berlin 1/2Jan44; Berlin 2/3Jan44; Brunswick 14/15Jan44; Berlin 27/28jan44; Berlin 30/31Jan44; Berlin 15/16Feb44; With No.463 Sqdn as JO-J, Leipzig 19/20Feb44; Schweinfurt 24/25Feb44; Stuttgart 15/16Mar44-Lost. When lost this aircraft had a total of 102 hours ME573 was one of two 463 Lancasters lost on this operation. See ED606 Airborne 1904 15Mar44 from Waddington. Believed to have been shot down by Flak, crashing some 3 km SE of Ludwigburg, a large town 10 km N of Stuttgart. All are buried in D_rnbach War Cemetery. F/S Benzie had married Ivy Benzie of Etwall in Derbyshire. P/O J.Roberts DFC RAAF KIA Sgt J.Wilby KIA P/O P.C.R.Brown KIA F/S J.M.Benzie RAAF KIA F/S.J.F.Palmer RAAF KIA P/O J.L.Childs DFC RNZAF KIA Sgt R.Pead KIA "
     
  2. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Headstone does not match! Any clues why?
    F/O John Roberts (DFC) 416893 463sq buried at Durnbach Cemetery Germany.

    View attachment 17852
    ROBERTS, JOHN (DFC)
    Flying Officer
    416893
    463sq
    RAAF
    15/03/1944
    23
    Coll. grave 4. E. 30-33.

    This headstone is not RAAF - Any clues why? Error?

    I have sent all the material to the CWGC to see what their response is!

    [​IMG]


    I feel you will get the answer from C.W.G.C. that you are looking for.
    I had a similar question regarding a Grave at Medjez el Bab.
    The Headstone was wrongly inscribed and the reply was that they were aware of six others. Changing inscriptions or replacing headstones can take a couple of years or so.


    Brian
     
  3. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Hi Geoff,

    Can't directly help with your question, but if you have any problems discovering the reason for the 'mistake' I'm willing to phone the CWGC in an attempt to get an answer, I live just a couple of miles from their headquarters in Maidenhead.
    I think Brian has probably come up with the right explanation though.

    A few details on this loss.

    15-16 March 1944.

    463 Squadron
    Lancaster ME573 JO-J
    Op: Stuttgart.

    Crew.
    P/O. J. Roberts DFC RAAF +
    Sgt. J. Wilby +
    P/O. P C R. Brown +
    F/S. J M. Benzie RAAF +
    F/S. S J F. Palmer RAAF +
    P/O. J L. Childs DFC RNZAF +
    Sgt. R. Pead +

    Took off 1904 hrs from Waddington, believed to have fallen victim to flak, coming down some 3 km south west of Ludwigsburg, a large town 10 km north of Stuttgart.
    All are buried in Durnbach War Cemetery.

    F/S. Benzie RAAF had married Ivy Benzie of Etwall in Derbyshire.

    BCL Vol.5 - W R. Chorley.


    15/16 March 1944. Stuttgart


    863 aircraft - 617 Lancasters, 230 Halifaxes, 16 Mosquitos - ordered to attack Stuttgart. The German fighter controller split his forces into 2 parts. The bomber force flew over France nearly as far as the Swiss frontier before turning north-east to approach Stuttgart. This delayed the German fighters contacting the bomber stream but, when the German fighters did arrive, just before the target was reached, the usual fierce combats ensued. 37 aircraft - 27 Lancasters, 10 Halifaxes - were lost, 4.3 per cent of the force. 2 of the Lancasters force-landed in Switzerland. Adverse winds delayed the opening of the attack and the same winds may have been the cause of the Pathfinder marking falling back well short of the target, despite the clear weather conditions. Some of the early bombing fell in the centre of Stuttgart but most of it fell in open country south-west of the city. The Akademie was damaged in the centre of Stuttgart and some housing was destroyed in the south-western suburbs.

    Regards

    Peter
     
  4. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

  5. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Here is a link to the badge which is carved on the headstone of P/O Roberts.

    Badge of The Liverpool Scottish,

    The headstone carving is very good. The chap who took the photos had a very good quality camera I am sure.

    There was a large snowfall which is not truly evident on Roberts' photo. Some seem if they were made yesterday which is not beyond possibility. Many seemed very new compared to many others that had faded somewhat.
     
  6. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Just received a response fronm the CWGC.

    Thank you for your email of 14 June 2009 concerning the headstone marking the grave of 416893 Flying Officer J. Roberts, DFC in Durnbach War Cemetery, Germany.

    Our records confirm your observation that the headstone has been engraved with the incorrect cap badge. Arrangements are, therefore, now in hand for the headstone to be replaced. However, I should explain that it can take up to 15 months for a headstone to be engraved in our workshops in France, transported to Germany, and erected.

    I shall let you know as soon as this has taken place and send you a photograph of the completed work.

    Peter Stainthorpe
    Enquiries Section
     
  7. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    I've also received the same type of e-mail about changing an incorrect headstone in the UK. They did not offer to send me a photo of the completed work:huh:
     
  8. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Possibly due to the fact that I have the other 261 RAAF photos in that cemetery.
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Good Job Spidge :)
     
  10. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    I've also received the same type of e-mail about changing an incorrect headstone in the UK. They did not offer to send me a photo of the completed work:huh:

    I was thinking that they may demand proof from the people in France that the work on the stone has been carried out and ditto that it has been replaced so it is very easy to send an email.
     
  11. lizzie3750

    lizzie3750 Junior Member

    In answer to the incorrect headstone regarding John Roberts, he originally joined up in the Australian Army and then transferred to the RAAF. I suspect the information didn't filter through and the wrong one was accidentally put on. I have a photograph of his correct headstone if you would like me to send it to you? the photograph was taken in 2006 when we visited the grave.
    Liz
     
    Buteman likes this.
  12. lizzie3750

    lizzie3750 Junior Member

    [​IMG] upload_2020-10-28_21-22-15.png Here it is. I hope this helps. Regards Liz
     
    Ronny and Buteman like this.

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