Hedgerow question

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Mori, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    I had, but it's good to check again. Among the primary sources quoted there, I'd like to check Battle experiences #1, if anyone has it.
     
  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I have only quite quickly read through this 2014 article: The Bocage Myth: Allied Planners Did Not Leave Out the Norman Hedgerows in Planning D-Day

    But after a brief skim through it, there are quite a lot of recurring refs. to "hedgerows" in the (contemporary) discussion and some facsimiles of ww2 documents. The one shown at the bottom of this post seeming to have a specific reference to Normandy "hedgerows"

    In summary of the article there's this quote:

    "I have not come across any evidence showing the Allies totally ignored the bocage, so where did this long-held belief of negligent military intelligence come from (other than the oft-mocked oxymoron “military intelligence” itself)? Surely Allied operatives and French Resistance members on the scene relayed information on Normandy’s terrain back to England before the invasion. Was it then just a fundamental misunderstanding on how large these formations could be? Some confusion is obvious from a statement within the report itself, and I quote: “It is difficult to judge whether such terrain favors defending or attacking infantry.” So in some ways, perhaps, the Allies did not know what the French bocage was all about. But to state they missed it or ignored it is completely false. In any case, the Germans once again made great and strong defenses from the hedgerows, as they had the bombed-out abbey at Monte Cassino, and as they would again later in the Hurtgen Forest, making the Allies pay dearly in blood for every square-inch of ground gained during the war."

    This is the BIGOT document (below):

    [​IMG]

    Where there is a mention of hedge-rows ;-)
    Shown here in the "detail" - between two lines - 5&4 lines from the bottom.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
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  3. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    Thanks, that's excellent. It's pre-D-Day, obviously.

    Also, just found one "hedgerow" in the Hansen diary on June 7th. But although it's under the June 7th entry, the quote reads:
    "Gen [Bradley] spoke of terrain: 'Damnest country I've seen with rows of hedgerows, beautifully camouflaged. On Omaha on the 8th we saw these positions with the ditches dug almost under the hedges and beautifully prepared with wooden rivetments'"

    A statement under June 7th refering to a past event taking place on June 8th... embarassing.

    In the same source, the famous quote of Collins comparing the Normandy terrain with Guadalcanal's has "hedges", not "hedgerow". (It's under June 9th).

    It seems there are early cases of "hedgerows", but the word becomes really common early July.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  4. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. "the word becomes really common early July" - I was thinking about why, perhaps, that might be...

    And: Bocage - Wikipedia

    Has...

    [​IMG]

    So according to the map currently in the wiki article on "bocage" at least - a lot of the British held section up to 2nd July 1944 wasn't actually by some "strict definition" (?) "bocage country" -

    The source for this map is: https://history.army.mil/brochures/normandy/p33.jpg

    Additionally in the section, there is a "hedgerow" quote:

    Normandy
    In Normandy, the bocage acquired a particular significance in the Chouannerie during the French Revolution.[2] It was also significant during the Battle of Normandy in World War II, as it made progress against the German defenders difficult.[3] In response, the Rhino tank was developed; a modification added to the front of tanks to aid them cut a hole through the bocage. *American personnel usually referred to bocage as hedgerows. The German army also used sunken lanes to implement strong points and defenses to stop the American troops on the Cotentin peninsula and around the town of Saint-Lô

    * Though this statement currently lacks attribution, I guess. ;-)
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  5. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I didn't know about the prongs for poking holes for charges. I bet eventually a driver poked in too far and too fast and noticed the tank pushed right through the bank instead of riding up the slope and the Culin device was born.
     
  6. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Check the ground on the 1947 air survey. Start position is just above Caen and you can shuffle across to the US sector and zoom for comparison.
    Icons at right toggle between different ways of displaying the air view with the map.

    Remonter le temps
     
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  7. Mori

    Mori Active Member

  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    That's pretty much Doubler's (Busting the Bocage) point. The detail is from p32 onwards. I have a nagging feeling that someone else has written a similar unit-based chronology of anti-hedgerow tactics but I may be confusing myself. There is also a Reader's Digest article on Culin in - I think - a 1951 issue.
     
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  9. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I couldn't find that Reader's Digest article but found this while looking. Culin information begins around page 97

    A History of Innovation: U.S. Army Adaptation in War and Peace
     
  10. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    Thanks Dave. I hadn't realized the hedgerow cutter were installed so late. The book suggests their first use in masse was for Cobra.
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY



    WW2TV

    "Premiered on 4 Oct 2019"

    "An introduction and visual guide to the famous Normandy Bocage." - looking "at the different types of hedgerow that exist, the reduction in number since 1944 and their impact on Allied and German tactics during the fighting. This is an opportunity for those who have never traveled to Normandy to see examples of sunken lanes and hedgerows up close."

    Edit: ;-) as the youtube title isn't showing Paul etc.

    Paul_Woodadge.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  12. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Oddly as soon as I saw the title of this thread I though - Woody was looking into this for one of his films - I didn't realise it was out yet, interesting watching
     
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  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    From Younghusband's Indian Frontier Warfare, 1898, citing General Hoche's doings around Vendee as an introduction to Roberts's campaign in Burmah!
     

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