Hello - PAIFORCE help!

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by katrb, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    Hi There,

    My name is Kat and I've just joined.

    I applied for my Grandad's army records about a year ago and they came through the other day!

    I thought I was quite clever until I opened the envelope! Wow it's all very confusing and I'm hoping that you clever people on here can help me decephier what it all means!

    So far all I've managed is that he was in the REME (transferred to there on 1.10.42 from No2 Training Battalion RACO). He was then posted to Iraq on 3.12.41 where he served until 4.1.44, he then seemed to to go to Persia possibly as the record says:

    7/44 CHQ 2 ECH PAIFORCE . Lov ME SOS PAIFORCE 4.1.44

    What does that mean?
     
  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Paiforce was Persia and Iraq force and would have applied anywhere within that region.

    My Grandfather spent a time under Paiforce as part of 5th Division

    Is it GHQ (General Headquarters) 2nd Echelon Paiforce ?

    ME is usually Middle East.

    The posting from RAOC to REME reflected the formation of REME to take over some duties from them and RASC

    If there is nothing too confidential, it may be worth posting scans of his postings in case any further info can be gleaned.

    Your next step will be to obtain the war diaries for HQ REME at GHQ Paiforce to ascertain where they were located.

    There is an official history of Paiforce

    paiforce official history - AbeBooks

    By the way, your thread title had me thinking that I would be reporting a spammer. The use of lots of 'X's usually means something else on the internet (not that I'd know). It might be worth changing it, to at least include Paiforce to make sure that the right people find it.
     
  3. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    Paiforce was Persia and Iraq force and would have applied anywhere within that region.

    My Grandfather spent a time under Paiforce as part of 5th Division

    Is it GHQ (General Headquarters) 2nd Echelon Paiforce ?

    ME is usually Middle East.

    The posting from RAOC to REME reflected the formation of REME to take over some duties from them and RASC

    If there is nothing too confidential, it may be worth posting scans of his postings in case any further info can be gleaned.

    Your next step will be to obtain the war diaries for HQ REME at GHQ Paiforce to ascertain where they were located.

    There is an official history of Paiforce

    paiforce official history - AbeBooks

    By the way, your thread title had me thinking that I would be reporting a spammer. The use of lots of 'X's usually means something else on the internet (not that I'd know). It might be worth changing it, to at least include Paiforce to make sure that the right people find it.

    That's fantastic - I thought that the ME SOS part meant that he had been struck down medical emergency as he seemed to return home in 1944.

    Thank you so much for the reply though - I will scan the documents in on Monday! Much appreciated
     
  4. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hi There,

    My name is Kat and I've just joined.

    I applied for my Grandad's army records about a year ago and they came through the other day!

    I thought I was quite clever until I opened the envelope! Wow it's all very confusing and I'm hoping that you clever people on here can help me decephier what it all means!

    So far all I've managed is that he was in the REME (transferred to there on 1.10.42 from No2 Training Battalion RACO). He was then posted to Iraq on 3.12.41 where he served until 4.1.44, he then seemed to to go to Persia possibly as the record says:

    7/44 CHQ 2 ECH PAIFORCE . Lov ME SOS PAIFORCE 4.1.44

    What does that mean?

    Welcome to the forum Kat.

    PAIFORCE was the Persia and Iraq Force - Persia being the current day Iran. It came into force from 1 September 1941 when Persia was secured and was effectively the expansion of the prior Iraq force.

    The other characters are all to do with the origin of his orders and assignment, but what the attachment is I am unable to say; except that ME is possibly 'mechanical engineers'.

    It is usually easier to work these matters out if provided with a copy of the service record, but they are obviously very personal, so will understand if you do not wish to post these on the thread.

    Best,

    Steve.

    Edit: I see that Rich has already provided an insight, whilst I was drafting this... I hope all is helpful!
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Katrib
    you are a bit bent there as the "SOS" stands for "Struck off Strength" of Paiforce on Jan 1 '44 - in order to come home ready for D Day..?

    Your scan should show us the whole picture..

    Cheers
     
  6. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    Thanks everyone!

    Looks like I am way off the mark then!

    I'll get the documents scanned in and let you have a look - like I said previously it might as well be written in Chinese, that's how much it makes sense to me!

    One thing I did notice was the posting to Iraq leaving on 3rd December 1941 - how would I find out what ship they sailed on?

    Thanks again - really really appreciate all your help!
     
  7. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Paiforce was Persia and Iraq force and would have applied anywhere within that region.

    My Grandfather spent a time under Paiforce as part of 5th Division

    Is it GHQ (General Headquarters) 2nd Echelon Paiforce ?

    ME is usually Middle East.

    The posting from RAOC to REME reflected the formation of REME to take over some duties from them and RASC

    If there is nothing too confidential, it may be worth posting scans of his postings in case any further info can be gleaned.

    Your next step will be to obtain the war diaries for HQ REME at GHQ Paiforce to ascertain where they were located.

    There is an official history of Paiforce

    paiforce official history - AbeBooks



    I have a copy of 'Paiforce' and of the similar 'Five Ventures' - AbeBooks both of which give a good overview of the sort of work the Army was up to in the region. Which apart from denying the oil fields to the Axis was maintaining the southern supply route to the Soviet Union.
     
  8. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Kat,

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    It looks like you are getting plenty of help and when you post a copy of the records I am sure that you will be inundated with information.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  9. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    Thanks again everyone - I'm in the office tomorrow so will scan in the documents received and upload them tomorrow night.

    Many thanks for your replies and help already!
     
  10. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    I've scanned in the records - hopefully one of you clever people will be able to understand them!

    I've asked for a picture of him in his uniform, I know my mum has one so will also post it up once I've got it.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Katrib
    fairly standard service record with utterly shocking handwriting which is disgraceful and very difficualt to read- but the gist is fairly easy....

    Joined RA0C 19 June '41 as single -A1- Roman Catholic from Glasgow -
    Released 21 November '45- as B1
    Card 2 - just repeat ..
    History - UK- to 3.12.41- embarked probably via Durban until 3rd Jan '41
    REclassified medically to B1 - 7 November '44
    UK home on 26 December '45 - BUT - he was on leave on PYTHON ( Time served overseas) on the 19th December '45
    Postings- shocking handwriting but but essentialy repeat of reclassification with TWO sick list visits (X(ii)
    Record- just the facts on entry
    Release - standard "exemplary" - very popular word on last interviews by Majors
    Release # = 36 - (mine was 50 for May '47)
    Statement - Changeover to REME - release and usual rubbish - NO campaign medal for Paiforce but surely 1939/45 Star - Defence medal and 1939/45 war medal

    ONE thing very odd that is he was TOS - "taken on strength" to "Y" list - which is unemployed on 8th August '46 - Unless this was when his leave expired after his release in December '45

    hope this helps clear the air ..
    Cheers
     
  12. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    Katrib
    fairly standard service record with utterly shocking handwriting which is disgraceful and very difficualt to read- but the gist is fairly easy....

    Joined RA0C 19 June '41 as single -A1- Roman Catholic from Glasgow -
    Released 21 November '45- as B1
    Card 2 - just repeat ..
    History - UK- to 3.12.41- embarked probably via Durban until 3rd Jan '41
    REclassified medically to B1 - 7 November '44
    UK home on 26 December '45 - BUT - he was on leave on PYTHON ( Time served overseas) on the 19th December '45
    Postings- shocking handwriting but but essentialy repeat of reclassification with TWO sick list visits (X(ii)
    Record- just the facts on entry
    Release - standard "exemplary" - very popular word on last interviews by Majors
    Release # = 36 - (mine was 50 for May '47)
    Statement - Changeover to REME - release and usual rubbish - NO campaign medal for Paiforce but surely 1939/45 Star - Defence medal and 1939/45 war medal

    ONE thing very odd that is he was TOS - "taken on strength" to "Y" list - which is unemployed on 8th August '46 - Unless this was when his leave expired after his release in December '45

    hope this helps clear the air ..
    Cheers

    Tom your a superstar! He was injured during the war, he got his eardrum blown out and some shrapnel in his leg would this have anything to do with ?the 'Taken on Strength'.

    One thing I can't give out is what troop company he was with. Another quick question "release = 36" what does this mean, you said your's was 50!

    Can't thank you enough for your reply, our whole family is waiting with baited breath for me to fill them in, allthough he wasn't any major war hero he will always be a big hero in our eyes!

    I don't know how we can every thank such a brave generation for giving us our liberty and freedom.
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Katrib
    On joining the armed forces - everyone was given a number in case they survived in order to be free of all uniforms - sergeant majors etal - Roberts was # 36 as he joined in June '41 - mine was #50 as I joined in December '42- and as soon a war finished the people with #1 were allowed to leave - and so it began as Roberts #36 party finally crawled it's way to December '45 - and mine to May of '47- and it was a crawl as then they realised that the army was a shadow of it's former self and there were few jobs anyway-

    One man who was a Brigadier- General of Entertainments in the flesh pots of Egypt refused to be released as he didn't want his former job so they had to import a man from the West Indies to fill his job as a bus conductor....!

    and that was the beginning of the trouble you had in Tottenham and other spots just last week- but don't say it out loud as they will be calling me a r***** amongst other nasty names
    Cheers
     
  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    KatB - meant to answer your query about being TOS after being released - probably as he had lost an eardrum and shrapnel etc he had applied for a pension and thus he MIGHT have been TOS in order that they could test out his claim over a couple of days by various experts- bearing in mind that the British Government don't throw pensions at any Tom - Dick or Harry unless you now work for the MOD and get a Gold Visa card as well.....

    as I found when recalled for the Korea thingi and was rejected over a bad ear after I was wounded - my request for a pension drew gales of laughter at the time as I was led to the exit..even to-day our old age pensions are at the 1989 level as we have the immense cheek to live in the Colonies ....sheesh...

    so don't immigrate to the old Colonies if you expect your normal entitlement of pension - go to the South of Spain and get a heating allowance - it'll cool you down in the blazing heat !
    Cheers
     
  15. redlynch

    redlynch Junior Member

    Hi There,

    My name is Kat and I've just joined.

    I applied for my Grandad's army records about a year ago and they came through the other day!

    I thought I was quite clever until I opened the envelope! Wow it's all very confusing and I'm hoping that you clever people on here can help me decephier what it all means!

    So far all I've managed is that he was in the REME (transferred to there on 1.10.42 from No2 Training Battalion RACO). He was then posted to Iraq on 3.12.41 where he served until 4.1.44, he then seemed to to go to Persia possibly as the record says:

    7/44 CHQ 2 ECH PAIFORCE . Lov ME SOS PAIFORCE 4.1.44

    What does that mean?

    From the record - if written in manuscript - second sentence might read Tos ME SOS PAIFORCE 4.1.44 (which would expand to "Taken on Strength ME, Struck off Strength PAIFORCE 4.1.44). The Army assumed that one could not be on the strength of two different organisations at the same time - so TOS was always followed by SOS. I believe that GHQ 2nd Echelon was located in Egypt.
     
  16. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    KatB - meant to answer your query about being TOS after being released - probably as he had lost an eardrum and shrapnel etc he had applied for a pension and thus he MIGHT have been TOS in order that they could test out his claim over a couple of days by various experts- bearing in mind that the British Government don't throw pensions at any Tom - Dick or Harry unless you now work for the MOD and get a Gold Visa card as well.....

    as I found when recalled for the Korea thingi and was rejected over a bad ear after I was wounded - my request for a pension drew gales of laughter at the time as I was led to the exit..even to-day our old age pensions are at the 1989 level as we have the immense cheek to live in the Colonies ....sheesh...

    so don't immigrate to the old Colonies if you expect your normal entitlement of pension - go to the South of Spain and get a heating allowance - it'll cool you down in the blazing heat !
    Cheers

    Thanks for your help Tom - much appreciated - things are a lot clearer now. Thankfully I'm lucky that I've never had to risk my life for my country (and unlikely too now as too old) but I do wish our taxes were put to better use making those who did serve in the war (no matter what country they reside in now) more comfortable, shocking how many (including my Grandad) who barely live/ed on enough to get by.
     
  17. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    From the record - if written in manuscript - second sentence might read Tos ME SOS PAIFORCE 4.1.44 (which would expand to "Taken on Strength ME, Struck off Strength PAIFORCE 4.1.44). The Army assumed that one could not be on the strength of two different organisations at the same time - so TOS was always followed by SOS. I believe that GHQ 2nd Echelon was located in Egypt.

    Thank you redlynch - I think that makes sense. Having never been involved with military it's hard concepts to understand!
     
  18. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    Meant to add that I reckon he left on convoy WS14 from the Clyde on 8th December although it says it landed in Durban 8/1/1942 (records say 3rd January).

    Anyone got a clue which company of REME he belonged or even different places he was posted in the Middle East? Or are the Army records that scarce that this will be impossible to find?
     
  19. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Kat,

    Most of his postings appear to be fairly general, except on relocation from PAIFORCE to ME (Egypt) where he appears to be attached to the 31st Armoured - from 14 April 1944 to 6 September 1945.

    If I am right about this, then I believe this is probably the 31st Indian Armoured Division, as its British number was only formed in NW Eurpoe in 1945. Most of the division did not see action and the closest it got was in April 1944 when it was rushed to Egypt to crush a mutiny among the Greek 1st Infantry Brigade. This coincides to some extent with your granddad's posting.

    The 31st Indian Armoured Division 'cavalry' received M4 Shermans in November 1943 in preparation for a transfer to Italy, but this never happened. They were only used in Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Your granddad would likely have been tasked with keeping these Shermans or other divisional vehicles fit for purpose.

    Tom would know far better than me about all this and hopefully he can confirm the foregoing, or otherwise.

    Saying that, your granddad obviously saw some action courtessy of his shrapnel, etc. injuries. Histories don't always say it how it was!

    Regarding this:

    I don't know how we can every thank such a brave generation for giving us our liberty and freedom.

    I couldn't agree more...

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  20. katrb

    katrb Junior Member

    Hello Kat,

    Most of his postings appear to be fairly general, except on relocation from PAIFORCE to ME (Egypt) where he appears to be attached to the 31st Armoured - from 14 April 1944 to 6 September 1945.

    If I am right about this, then I believe this is probably the 31st Indian Armoured Division, as its British number was only formed in NW Eurpoe in 1945. Most of the division did not see action and the closest it got was in April 1944 when it was rushed to Egypt to crush a mutiny among the Greek 1st Infantry Brigade. This coincides to some extent with your granddad's posting.

    The 31st Indian Armoured Division 'cavalry' received M4 Shermans in November 1943 in preparation for a transfer to Italy, but this never happened. They were only used in Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Your granddad would likely have been tasked with keeping these Shermans or other divisional vehicles fit for purpose.

    Tom would know far better than me about all this and hopefully he can confirm the foregoing, or otherwise.

    Saying that, your granddad obviously saw some action courtessy of his shrapnel, etc. injuries. Histories don't always say it how it was!

    Regarding this:



    I couldn't agree more...

    Best,

    Steve.

    Steve, WOW that all makes sense now! I was very close to my Grandad (who sadly died in 1996) and he spoke about the war, I as all younger generation, I didn't appreciate and sometimes listen fully to his stories. (big regret now).

    I do recall though him telling me he had quite an easy time - in Israel I think looking after supplies for vehicles - until he was posted to Egypt where it all kicked off and also where he got injured and said some 'long time' army mates died.

    Looks like he must have been part of that deployment to fight the Greeks, although probably not as bad a fight as most have seen it did leave (as I'm sure WW2 did with most) a lot of mental scars.

    I can't thank everyone enough on this forum, I feel really blessed to have been helped by such a lovely bunch of people. I don't think anybody knows how much this will help me carry the legacy and braveness of everyone who fought in WW2 down to every generation that I can get to listen!!

    Any other help anybody can give is all gratefully received. The pieces of the jigsaw are finally coming together :D
     

Share This Page