help needed deciphering records

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by whitehound, May 25, 2012.

  1. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    I'm trying to make sense of my father Rory Langford-Rae's very convoluted army records. He attested in April 1944 when he was just turned 17 but wasn't called up until January 1945. In the three years between then and being demobbed he was in the Grenadier Guards, the South Staffordshires and the Ox & Bucks Light Infantry with some kind of diversion involving the Welsh Guards, and rose to Lieutenant at 20. He was demobbed in April 1948 and by October 1948 he had been decorated by the Polish Army in Exile for his services as a negotiator, despite having no Polish connections other than that there had been some Polish boys at his school.

    The only thing in his notes which is crystal clear is that at one point he was given two weeks' CB for being insolent to a warrant officer and conducting himself in a slovenly and unsoldierlike manner, but other than that it's all acronyms, not all of them legible. I'm hoping somebody in this section of the forum will be able to help me make sense of the sections of his notes which relate to his time in the Guards, up to September 1945.

    What, for example, does No. of Part II Order or other Authority = Pt II's 9 /45 mean? And what is "Rel. to Class W/T A. Res."? I presume the last bit is "Territorial Army Reserves" but what's "Rel" short for, and what does Class W mean in this context?
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Moved thread to 'Service Records' area of the forum.
    Any chance you could upload images of the records for the chaps to view & decypher?
     
  3. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hi Whitehound and welcome.
    As Owen has suggested if you can scan and post the pages members might be able to decipher the complex Army codes and references used in service records. It is a common problem trying to understand them but your Father's service seems extraordinary and very complicated.
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Class W or W(T) Reserve. They then cease to come under the age and service group scheme for release unless, having left the employment for which they were released before the prescribed period, they are recalled. If they are so recalled the period of release in Class B does not count towards their age and service groups and their date of release in Class A is deferred accordingly. Extract from Hansard.


    Part II orders are where occurrences are published. Authority has to be given for eg: discharge, promotion.course details etc, the PtII order is published to all departments, pay office.clothing, for travel warrants and other occurences that may change a soldiers service -9/45 means Serial 9 of 1945. So released (Rel) to W/T A reserve by authority of Pt II orders serial 9 of 1945



    Class W Reserve and its Territorial Force equivalent Class W(T) were introduced in June 16 by Army Order 203/16. They were ‘for all those soldiers whose services are deemed to be more valuable to the country in civil rather than military employment’. Men in these classes were to receive no emoluments from army funds and were not to wear uniform. They were liable at any time to be recalled to the colours. From the time a man was transferred to Class W, until being recalled to the Colours, he was not subject to military discipline.
     
    Osborne2 and RosyRedd like this.
  5. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Moved thread to 'Service Records' area of the forum.
    Any chance you could upload images of the records for the chaps to view & decypher?


    I will do when I get onto a bit I can't actually read but there are fourteen pages of this stuff so I thought I'd better take it in bite-sized installments, and the first bit is something I can read OK - I just don't know what it means.
     
  6. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    -9/45 means Serial 9 of 1945. So released (Rel) to W/T A reserve by authority of Pt II orders serial 9 of 1945

    OK ta. He was a student at Ampleforth at the time, so if I understand you correctly, this line means that since he was too young to serve overseas anyway, the army felt that he would do more good by continuing his studies until he turned 18, so they "released" him from his attestation to go back to school until they should recall him.

    Here's the first section of records which I'm actually having trouble reading. It's from the top left of the first page of his attestation forms. Any idea what D.U.N.B. stands for? And what is the bit that goes "Enlisted under R.??? W/611"?

    And yes, it's enormously complicated, and he was a very quiet guy who never spoke about himself and in any case died in some kind of road accident in 1965, so there's no direct information to go on, other than his records. After the thing with the Polish army he did a degree in Modern History at Oxford and then became a senior civil servant during the Malayan Emergency. He then became a negotiatior between tea-planters and their employees in Assam but his death was peculiar. He was a rotten driver so the official version of his death - that he was killed in a car crash - is perfectly feasible, except that the Assam police gave two different locations for the fatal crash, fifty miles apart, one of them very close to a military airbase.

    He wasn't in MI5 or MI6 - I checked - but his father, my grandfather (a senior police officer just outside Rangoon), was some sort of unofficial spy, because there's a British government document circa 1946 which says that BLD Rae is the government's best source of clandestine information on the incoming Myanmese government. Rory spoke several forms of Chinese and his half brothers believe he may have been used as a translator and negotiator in dodgy situations, so he may well have been at the airbase translating Chinese signals for Indian Intelligence.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    PS almost the whole of my father's family was deeply bizarre. Of Rory's three paternal uncles at least three were war heroes (the fourth one was a vaudeville artiste in Paris - he may have ended up in the French Resistance but I don't know). One of them was one of the ten Z-Force British Officer Johnnies; one taught jungle survival skills to OSS 101, the forerunner of the CIA, who were under the mistaken impression that he was an escaped lunatic; and my grandfather was doing something clandestine in the Kachin Hills and I haven't managed to find who he was working for, but it's been suggested he might have been working with HNC Stevenson.

    Rory's maternal grandfather, George Shirran, was a teuchter from Turriff who spent 26 years in The Black Watch, rose to be RQMS, fought at Kirbekan, in the 2nd Boer War and at Loos and yet the most serious injury he ever suffered in the army was a nasty blister on his foot while he was in training, and in peacetime he was one of the earliest senior social workers in Scotland. George Shirran's daughter, Rory's mother, started life as Ethel Maud Shirran, a shorthand typist in Edinburgh, and ended up as the Kazini Elisa Maria Deorgi Khangsarpa of Sikkim, after a chequered career which included at least three and possibly as many as six husbands.
     
  8. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    Class W or W(T) Reserve. They then cease to come under the age and service group scheme for release unless, having left the employment for which they were released before the prescribed period, they are recalled. If they are so recalled the period of release in Class B does not count towards their age and service groups and their date of release in Class A is deferred accordingly. Extract from Hansard.


    Part II orders are where occurrences are published. Authority has to be given for eg: discharge, promotion.course details etc, the PtII order is published to all departments, pay office.clothing, for travel warrants and other occurences that may change a soldiers service -9/45 means Serial 9 of 1945. So released (Rel) to W/T A reserve by authority of Pt II orders serial 9 of 1945

    Class W Reserve and its Territorial Force equivalent Class W(T) were introduced in June 16 by Army Order 203/16. They were ‘for all those soldiers whose services are deemed to be more valuable to the country in civil rather than military employment’. Men in these classes were to receive no emoluments from army funds and were not to wear uniform. They were liable at any time to be recalled to the colours. From the time a man was transferred to Class W, until being recalled to the Colours, he was not subject to military discipline.


    Wills thanks for posting this. It explains some stuff for me too. Really helpful.

    Also welcome to the forum whitehound - and good luck with your research :)
     
  9. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    D.U.N.B - This looks to be a deferment category. Under the 1939 National Services Act. Not sure which one yet!
     
  10. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Hang on - how was he released to W/T A reserve by authority of Pt II orders serial 9 of 1945 in April 1944?
     
  11. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    So Rory's first name was Roderick?

    SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 MAY, 1947

    Oxf. & Bucks. L.I.

    War Subs. Lt. H. de C. STEVENS-GUILLE (102794) relinquishes his commn., 8th Nov. 1945, and is granted the hon. rank of Capt.

    2627026 Cadet Roderick Denis Edward LANGFORD-RAE (377967) to be 2nd Lt., isth Dec. 1946.


    SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 JANUARY, 1948

    Oxj. & Bucks. L.I.

    2nd Lt. R. D. E. LANGFORD-RAE (377967) to be Lt., 15th Dec. 1947.
     
  12. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    OK, I've found the DUNB - or rather, I haven't, but there's nothing to find. The way it's been written on this form, with full stops between the letters as if it was an acronym, is an error. It's just a string of letters, like a postcode. All the National Registration Identity Numbers begin with a four letter code and it doesn't mean anything, except that different codes were issued to different area. DUNB probably represents the area in Yorkshire where Ampleforth is situated, but there seems to be no master list surviving of what initials went with what area.

    Any ideas about the "Enlisted under R.??? W/611" bit? I can't even read it, otherwise I might be able to find it on the net - what's the bit after the R?
     
  13. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    We really need to see the document. The 9/45 is right what we need to see is why that occurrence is listed and when. Unless we see the document it is difficult to put one occurrence into context.


    Staff duties, the listing of officer occurrences can be listed on a restricted publication part II or part III order, these are not published as often. I would be surprised if a document has enlisted and officer occurrences, Need to see it really.



    After years of weapons, tactics, training and a spell away doing others things back to the infantry and in time awarded a desk .Daunting at first, lucky is the staff type if he has an NCO and a clerk who know more than he does! 'If it was me Sir' or 'here be a big trap' listen or aaaargh!

    Staff duties was the one of import for me, yet this often touched on the others.





    There are often requests for explanation of records and military publications. It would indeed be a fool who suggested they had all the answers. I hope the following might give an insight into the complexities and as with all things complex the initial design was intended to simplify. When Hooker (Rolls Royce) saw Whittles jet engine he said well Frank that really is quite simple. We will soon design the simplicity out of that!




    Trg Precis Regs, Manuals, Pams and Orders Longmoor 1955


    They are designed to be interpreted reasonably and intelligently (ho bloody ho)
     
  14. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    So Rory's first name was Roderick?
    SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 MAY, 1947


    Yes, that's him. I didn't find the 1947 entry when I searched - thanks. He's in 1952-03-14 p. 1456 as well, relinquishing his command and being granted the honorary rank of Lieutenant.

    We really need to see the document. The 9/45 is right what we need to see is why that occurrence is listed and when. Unless we see the document it is difficult to put one occurrence into context.


    OK, I'll try, but it's much bigger than the limits given by the file-attachment dialogue and if I shrank it to fit I don't think it would be legible. These (if they've come through) are the two pages we're discussing at the moment - do you want the other twelve pages as well? Would it help?

    Staff duties, the listing of officer occurrences can be listed on a restricted publication part II or part III order, these are not published as often. I would be surprised if a document has enlisted and officer occurrences, Need to see it really.


    You're right, he starts on a new sheet and gets a different army number when he's commissioned.
    They are designed to be interpreted reasonably and intelligently (ho bloody ho)

    Army Records provide a glossary, but knowing that LIAP stands for "Leave in Addition to Python" is not in itself very helpful. Thank God for Google.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Pos/709 (authority) To 148th Officer Pre selection training brigade

    Authority -Para 2D of War office (letter) MOU100 candidates ACI (Officers E) (Army Council Instructions)


    TB in unit column (Training Battalion)

    161 OCTU was an Infantry - Officer Cadet Training Unit. Aldershot


    Transfer to South Staffs -Authority WOL (War office Letter) 112/L/542 (AG2A) Adjutant General 2A dated 24/8/45


    Mons Officer Cadet School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Secret City, accompanied by British Army:




    City Secret – Polish Connection | The Karachi Walla
     
  16. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Pos/709 (authority) To 148th Officer Pre selection training brigade


    Thanks. What's the word between "Pre-Octu Training" and "(Cadets)", do you think? It looks like "Eet" - could it be "Bat"?

    I contacted somebody at the Polish site you gave me a link for earlier, and they're looking into it.
     
  17. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Pre selection training establishment (cadets)
     
  18. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    Oh I see, it's "Est" - thank you! I've been puzzling over that one for weeks - this person has lousy handwriting.

    Any suggestions what that bit at top left of the Attestation form says, which begins "Enlisted under R." - and what's the next bit? It looks a little bit like 2Mo - but not a *lot* like. It doesn't look a lot like anything.
     
  19. whitehound

    whitehound Member

    OK, if nobody can read it there, how about on this form below, where it recurs? It's on the last line of the block of handwritten text in the middle - the word "Reserve", followed by something which looks like "mole" but is probably "vide", and then "R. illegible squiggle W/611". Any suggestions as to what the squiggle says?
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    It states Reserve vide R ?? W/611 - file reference - where from? That might be the needle and haystack.
     

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