Help with Grandfathers WW2 service with RE

Discussion in 'Royal Engineers' started by MickU, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. MickU

    MickU New Member

    My grandfather - John Lovely Urwin - served with the RE in WW2 - Service number 1927455 and enlisted on the 9th Jan 1939. We know very little about his service history as he never talked about it. We understand he was evacuated from Dunkirk and was a Staff Sgt in 972 IWT Light Aid Workshop - No.10 Port Op Grp RE - around D-Day. I understand he was promoted to RSM and then WO2 before his discharge in 1946.
    I am trying to find out any information on what he did during WW2 where he was and what his unit was doing - any help would be gratefully received.

    John Lovely Urwin.jpg service book.JPG BEM citation.JPG
     
  2. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    So we're analysing this:

    service book.JPG
     
  3. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    What parts are giving you trouble?

    Possibly these:

    Promoted A / P / Sgt: Promoted Acting Paid Sergeant, 16/3/44.
    Promoted A / U / S Sgt: Promoted Acting Unpaid Staff Sergeant, 10/6/44.
    Granted P / A / S Sgt: Granted Pay (as) Acting Staff Sergeant, with effect from 10/6/44.
    Granted W / Rank of S/Sgt: Granted Wartime Rank of Staff Sergeant, 7/12/44.
    Promoted U / A / Rank of WOII: Promoted Unpaid Acting Rank of Warrant Officer Second Class, with effect from 25/6/45.
    Gtd P/A/Rank of WOII: Granted Pay (as) Acting Rank of Warrant Officer Second Class, with effect from 25/6/45.

    Warrant Officer Second Class, incidentally, is CSM: Company Sergeant Major or, in this case, QMS = Quartermaster Sergeant (Technical).

    In each case, the 'authy' is the 'authority': the code for the order that was given for the promotion on change in status.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
    Tricky Dicky likes this.
  4. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

  5. MickU

    MickU New Member

    Much appreciated - that makes the ranks clear - my main focus is his service history - where he was and what he did - as I said he never talked about his wartime experiences and although there may not be a great amount of detail available to have some idea would be helpful - I am new to this so am really starting from scratch.
     
  6. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Get a copy of military service records - GOV.UK

    You'll want to apply for his service records if you don't already have them: they are not identical to the documents you have posted: they should show unit names and general locations. Even if the latter don't feature, the former with the dates will allow you to place him on pretty much any day. If you then want to drop down a level of detail, you'll be able to consult the unit War Diaries at the National Archives. These are the day to day logs of (pretty much) every unit and often include a wealth of specific information on what was afoot.
     
    MickU and Tricky Dicky like this.
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Port Operating Groups War Diaries

    Search for : 10 port operating group royal engineers

    Reference: WO 166/15228
    Description:
    10 Gp.
    Date: 1944 Mar.-May
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Legal status: Public Record(s)
    Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
    Access conditions: Closed For 29 years

    Reference: WO 166/15228
    Description:
    10 Gp.
    Date: 1944 Mar.-May
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Legal status: Public Record(s)
    Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
    Access conditions: Closed For 29 years

    Reference: WO 171/5872
    Description:
    10 Gp.
    Date: 1945 Jan.- Dec.
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Legal status: Public Record(s)
    Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

    Reference: WO 171/9585
    Description:
    10 Port Op. Gp.
    Date: 1946 Jan.- June
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Legal status: Public Record(s)
    Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

    TD
     
    MickU and Charley Fortnum like this.
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Seems as though he started life (1940) as a cook and made changes in 1944 to Royal Engineers, in the record above there is quite a gap between Oct 1940 and Mar 1944

    TD
     
    MickU likes this.
  9. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I see you've added a citation:

    972 IWT Light Aid Workshop Company, Royal Engineers
    No. 10 Port Op. GP. RE. (Number 10 Port Operations Group?) - Edit: Operating--see post above.

    I'm not familiar with the unit, but somebody will be and then we'll find out their movements.

    Next!
     
    MickU likes this.
  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Royal Engineers - Wikipedia

    "The Royal Engineers, Ports Section, operated harbours and ports for the army and used mainly specialised vessels such as tugs and dredgers. During the Second World War the Royal Engineers' Blue Ensign was flown from the Mulberry harbours."

    Also perhaps search this site as this topic has been seen before

    TD
     
    MickU likes this.
  11. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Can anybody make out the second line on the list of promotions?
    Cookery Training, 'somewhere' in Exeter.

    I'm a fool: it says Cookery Training Centre, Exeter.
     
    Tricky Dicky likes this.
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    What does my avatar say ?? :-P

    TD
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hello and welcome to the forum.

    I can tell you he wouldn't have been with 972 IWT Light Aid Workshop at Dunkirk/France 1939-1940. I think Inland Waterway units were formed prior to DDay.

    Regards
    Andy
     
    MickU likes this.
  14. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    This might help.
    972 Inland Water Transport Light Aid Workshop, REME
    Juno Beach Landing Tables - D-Day 6 June 1944

    Or maybe not.
    Only saw this piece on page 191.

    Inland Water Transport Companies, RE


    961 and 966 Inland Water Transport Companies, RE plus part of 946 Inland Water Transport

    Company, RE operated Rhino ferries with the assistance of 243 and 207 Pioneer Companies.

    972 Inland Water Transport Light Aid Workshop, REME provided maintenance and repair.

     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
    Tricky Dicky and 4jonboy like this.
  15. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    My father-in-law was an Officer in 966 Inland Water Transport, he arrived around 24 hrs after D-Day.
    As RCG said above, 972 operated Rhino ferries.

    I have some information but Mike aka Trux on the forum is your man for this who can explain it all much more than me. I will alert him to this thread and he will, I am sure, be in touch soon.:)

    Lesley
     
  16. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Mick,

    I can never disobey Lesley.

    10 Port Operating Group were responsible for operating Mulberry B, the artificial harbour. I do not have the War Diaries but will see what I can find.

    972 Inland Water Transport Light Aid Workshop was responsible for maintenance and first line repair of the equipment, which was tugs and barges.

    More later I hope.

    Mike.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  17. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Although grandfather John was with 10 Port Operating Group later his promotion in June 1944 seems to be with 4 Port Operating Group. It does not make a great deal of difference since both groups were working on Mulberry B. Below is the establishment of the Inland Water Transport Light Aid Workshop. Its role at Mulberry was maintenance and repair of the barges and TID tugs (of which more later.) Since he was later a Quartermaster Serjeant (Technical) he would not be a cook. Perhaps that was a course taken early in the war when each unit had its own personnel as cooks. Later cooks belonged to the Army Catering Corp.

    INLAND WATER TRANSPORT LIGHT AID WORKSHOP RE
    War Establishment IV/214/1. December 1944
    Vehicles.
    4 X bicycle
    5 X motorcycle
    4 X car 2 seater
    3 X 15cwt GS
    3 X 3ton 4 X 2 GS
    1 X 1ton trailer GS

    Headquarters:
    Major
    Captain
    Subaltern, Administration
    Company Serjeant Major
    company quartermaster serjeant
    serjeant clerk
    5 X serjeant, technical
    3 X corporal
    6 X sapper
    9 X driver, including one corporal
    4 X cook ACC

    Trades:
    4 X clerk including one corporal for pay duties
    draughtsman, mechanical, corporal
    2 X motorcyclist
    2 X storeman, technical including one corporal
    2 X batman
    4 X driver including one corporal
    3 X orderly
    sanitary dutyman


    There were three detachment each with:
    Subaltern
    corporal
    10 X sapper
    2 X driver

    Trades
    blacksmith
    blacksmiths striker and hammerman
    2 X boilermaker
    carpenter and joiner
    coppersmith
    plumber and pipefitter
    rigger
    storeman, technical
    2 X welder
    2 X driver

    Twelve Sub Sections each with
    serjeant, technical
    corporal
    9 X sapper
    carpenter and joiner
    electrician
    3 X fitter
    holders up or riveters helper
    2 X riveter
    shipwrights mate
    shipwright

    Mike
     

Share This Page