Looking for help! 23rd Hussars

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Len Deans, Jun 19, 2011.

  1. grimmy

    grimmy Guest

    Hi John,

    Thomas Edward Harte, solicitor, was listed as a director of Geoffrey Bishop Ltd (Incorporation Date: 14 May 1957).

    Date of Birth: May 1921. Appointed: 17 Nov 1993. Resigned: 29 Sep 2010.

    From the Daily Telegraph:

    HARTE
    Ted, on March 5th 2011 at Eastbourne Hospital, aged 89. Husband of the late Wendy, darling father of Jenny, Sunniva, Fiona and Anne, proud grandfather and great grandfather. Late 23rd Hussars (MID), respected solicitor, he will be greatly missed.
     
  2. grimmy

    grimmy Guest

    Scott - here's a B Squadron photo, not very detailed unfortunately. I'll try to get a better one.

    I can only repeat what I've posted before - Frank Greenwood was in HQ Squadron.
     

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  3. Little Jimmy

    Little Jimmy Junior Member

    JohnBrunt is mentioned in the B Sqdn. Journal. 10 Windermere Dtreet Liverpool Regards Heinz Johannsen Rendsburg Germany 0049 4331 448855
     
  4. Little Jimmy

    Little Jimmy Junior Member

    Good Morning from germany.. I have some Photos of the Husum time, and Im very interested in any other Photos of Schleswig Holstein , any chance of exchanging ?? best regards Heinz Johannsen 0049 4331 448855
     
  5. Sgt Oldham

    Sgt Oldham New Member

    Hi

    I’ve started to research my family tree and in particular the details of my great uncle who served and died in the war. He was with the 23rd Hussars, in ‘A’ squadron. The details on this forum thread have been very informative and I wonder if the expert knowledge out there could add any further details.
    My great uncle was Sargent Ernest Oldham (already mentioned on page 2 of the thread!), he was injured on 15th August 1944 and later died on 22nd August 1944. I’d be very interested to see any photos or hear about news of the regiment at that time.

    I have a copy of his casualty card and while I understand some of the acronyms (WIA, NWE), others are a mystery. Is anyone able to help with the meaning of the following
    ‘BNT’ – listed as ‘source of information’ but what does BNT stand for?
    ‘PRW on SI, Trans to DI List’ – I hope I have read the handwriting correctly on the card, this is in the present location and nature of casualty section on the card!

    Thanks in advance
    Anita
     
  6. Jim Spanna

    Jim Spanna Junior Member

    23h bovington (2).jpg 23h Bovington3.jpg
    Its only taken a year !! but hopefully I can scan some of Dads pictures in now.
    Y platoon RAC Bovington September 1943 with signatures on back.
    If these come out I will scan some more & post them.
     
  7. nmartin31

    nmartin31 Junior Member

    I have recently received a new picture from my mother showing my grandad with his unit. I am not sure where it was taken. army photo.jpg
     
  8. NewtonJ

    NewtonJ Junior Member

    Alright folks, has anybody got any 'B' squadron photos? Seems to be plenty of 'A' and 'C' knocking about but not many of my Great Grandad's lot!

    Sad to see Grimmy is no longer a member, bloke really knew his stuff.
     
  9. Rory Harte

    Rory Harte New Member

  10. Paul Ridout

    Paul Ridout New Member

    Hi Vinny,

    I have obtained a small archive of your grandfather and his brother. It includes two copies of the book, and a signed photo of him being decorated by Montgomery.

    I have uploaded the pictures here, on page 4 & 5.

    Blackwatch Chindit Collection by paul_hermitage

    Kindest Regards

    Paul
     
  11. Spencer Campbell

    Spencer Campbell New Member

    I just found these photographs and wanted to share with your forum. This is my grandfather Albert John Youell who is sadly no longer with us. He didn't like to talk about his time during the war which I can now understand, so thank you for sharing these amazing stories on here! (apologies for them being sideways it is how they were uploaded by the forum). From memory he told me of leaving his post as tank driver to rescue a high ranking officer who had been wounded but unfortunately I have not much else to add in this area.


    CIMG2546.JPG
    CIMG2545.JPG
     

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  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Spencer,
    I've fixed them for you. Welcome to the forum.
     
    Ramiles and Spencer Campbell like this.
  13. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Hi Spencer. Welcome to the Forum.

    Any idea when and where that photo was taken? Note: although the card mentions 23rd Hussars, he is not wearing a 23rd Hussars Cap Badge on that photo, and hence my question.
     
  14. Spencer Campbell

    Spencer Campbell New Member

    I wish I knew more on that topic. Any inputs you can provide in terms of the cap badge it would be appreciated. I have added another picture here that might be helpful as well.

    Photo533045242975_inner_0-13-723-13-0-977-727-983.jpg
     
  15. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    That second photo is interesting. Clearly 13/18th Hussars - see the shoulder 'slip on' insignia - and the Panda insignia of the 9th Armoured Division. The 9AD was a training/experimental Division formed in, I believe (you need to check that) late 1940 and the 13/18H, as part of 27th Armoured Brigade in the 9AD, left the Divison in about August 1942....so that, sort of, provides a date window for that photo, notably late 1940 to August 1942. Incidentally, the 13/18H did use tanks so his story may well check out.

    The Cap Badge in your initial photo is a bit difficult to make out but it is reminiscent of the Manchester Regiment. Hopefully that's correct.

    To really find out his history you need to get a copy of his Service Records.
     
  16. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    23H moved to Bridlington on 8 Jun 1943 (from Chippenham). They left Brid on 30/31 Mar 1944 (for Aldershot). (War Diary).

    I have the address list of men in HQ Squadron, there is no-one called Youell. I suspect he transferred elsewhere before 23H went to war. I agree with SDP that the cap badge in the first photo looks like the Manchester Regt.
     
  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    I'm not an expert on uniforms but that first 'Manchester Regiment - if that is what it is ' photo appears to be pre War.....just thinking out loud.

    I strongly suggest you contact the Tank Museum Library at Bovington for a copy of his Royal Armoured Corps Tracer Card: only costs a fiver and is far quicker than applying for his Service Records even though it only contains basic information.
     
  18. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    I've been trying to track down details of this engagement for a couple of years to try to identify:

    1. What 'A Sqn's losses actually were on 2 Aug 44.
    2. Whether there is any evidence to support suggestions by some historians that they ran into "Tigers" of 102 SS Heavy Tank Bn.

    Thanks to Diane's (aka Dbf) fine work in posting up some of the 23rd Hussars medal citations for 2 Aug 44 we can now assess the validity of Pak75's analysis above.

    1. As Pak75 points out, the regimental history states that 4 of 'A' Sqn's tanks escaped the ambush near Presles. He doesn't mention, however, that the regimental history identifies the enemy tanks as Panthers. The citations are all slightly different, but all state that between 4 or 5 tanks were immediately "brewed up" (corrected to "knocked out" in Major Watt's citation for the MC) including the Sqn Commander's. Sgt. Harris also recovered an abandoned tank which "had broken down owing to a petrol stoppage". It seems that another tank ("the Troop Corporal's) also broke down as Sgt Roberts recovered that one as well, before his tank was knocked out 'by A.Tk gun fire'. That suggests that perhaps 6 'A' Sqn tanks were knocked out on 2 Aug 44 in a skilful ambush and perhaps another 1-2 tanks would have been sent to the LAD for assessment. But just who were they ambushed by?



    2. Firstly, it is important to note that the identification of the German assailants as Tigers is not supported by any primary documentation. The "Tiger claims" just seems to have been owing to the normal attempt of "Tiger-authors" to claim any knocked out Allied tanks within 20 miles of a Tiger Bn as some of their victims. It's strange because every single British source (i.e. the 23rd Hussars regimental history and all the medal citations) states that they were Panthers. It's also worth noting that Sgt. T.K. Roberts' citation [incorrectly dated 3 Aug but clearly recording the action of the 2nd] records that once his tank had been knocked out, he and his crew were forced to take cover as they were 'surrounded by enemy tanks' and that once he managed to regain British lines he brought back 'useful information of the German dispositions'. Is it really credible that he would have misidentified those German tanks as Panthers if they were indeed Tigers. I, for one, seriously doubt it.

    WO373-51-52 - Major J.L. Watt - A Sqn 23 Hussars - 2 Aug 44 - PRESLES - Part 1.JPG

    WO373-51-52 - Major J.L. Watt - A Sqn 23 Hussars - 2 Aug 44 - PRESLES - Part 2.JPG

    WO373-52-38 - L-Sgt. E. Harris - A Sqn 23 Hussars - 2 Aug 44 - PRESLES.JPG

    WO373-52-37 - Sgt. T.K. Roberts - A Sqn 23 Hussars - PRESLES - 3 [2] Aug 44..JPG

    So how do these details now match up with 29th Armoured Brigade's losses as recorded in the war diary and quoted by Pak75?

    14 Shermans KO - 6 x 3 RTR, 2 x FF, 6 x 23 H
    10 Shermans damaged - 3 x 3 RTR, 2 (A Sqn 23 H - not sure about the rest of the regiment) - leaving 5 unaccounted for

    4 Fireflies KO - 1 x 3 RTR, 3 x 23 H (?)
    2 Fireflies damaged - unaccounted for

    More work to be done!

    Regards

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  19. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    From the (unpublished) memoirs of Sgt Bertie McCully, A Squadron:

    "Our route from Le Beny Bocage was to be through Le Desert, up to point 218, down the valley through Presles, up again to the high ground of Bas and Haut Perrier, and on to Chenedolle and our objective. The Fife and Forfars were on our right, but our left flank was open. B Squadron had entered Presles without incident, with A Squadron following. At this point, Major Blacker, the Regimental Second in Command, walking across the crossroads and glancing in the direction of Estry was surprised to see a Panther tank. Fortunately the Panther did not react quickly and Major Blacker was able to take cover. The situation became confused as the high banks at the side of the road precluded either side being able to get a shot at the other. My troop was instructed to work round to a position in the Panther’s flank and we were successful in destroying it.

    With Panthers liable to arrive unexpectedly, A Squadron was ordered to move out to the left. We followed a sunken lane for some distance until the leading troop was prevented from going farther. At this point, Major ‘Jimmy’ Watt, the Squadron Leader, dismounted from his tank and instructed me to take my tank through a gateway into a field and take up a position at the far hedge, where I could observe in an easterly direction for the enemy. As the last of A Squadron tanks entered the field ‘All Hell’ broke loose. A number of Panther tanks had been lying in ambush only a few hundred yards away and were camouflaged so well that it was impossible to detect them until they opened up. In no time a number of our tanks were erupting in flames and those that were not were fighting back desperately. Orders were given to withdraw and join the rest of the Regiment at Le Bas Perrier. In reversing through the rear hedge, my tank crash down a sunken lane and running over a large tree stump broke a track. We were stuck at an angle with the underbelly facing the enemy and no means of depressing the gun to fire. Lt. ‘Dickie’ Payne then came by and stopping, instructed me and my crew to abandon my tank and climb onto the back of his tank. Under cover of smoke we made our way back to the Regiment with just four tanks out of an original nineteen. "
     
  20. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Thanks for posting those extracts. More Panthers!

    Yes, a squadron had a war establishment of 19 tanks. It's pretty obvious that 'A' Sqn didn't start 2 Aug with that number though.

    Regards

    Tom
     

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