Hikoki:1946 (The "Luft 46" of the Japanese Aviation)

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Deadly Birds, Nov 27, 2008.

  1. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin


    I have a great book, called 'The Luftwaffe Album' co authored by Manfred Griehl and
    Joachim Dressel.
    I can really recommend this book. Extremely informative with many good illustrations.


  2. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Tom - my mistake Karl Kossler was the gents name - found his book on Amazon - going on grey cells alone - some of them cross wired . :redface:

    How I got in touch with him - would have to look out the correspondence. ( Otherwise "N.I.")

    Axis History Forum • View topic - Ju-390 in flight refuelling

    Ju-290 Flights to Manchuria, 1944

    General Message Board Threads

    (Found the above might be of interest.)

    Translated version of http://shopping.msn.de/reviews/die-gro%C3%9Fen-dessauer-%5Bv-k%C3%B6ssler-und-ott%5D/itemid5830856/?itemtext=itemname:die-gro%C3%9Fen-dessauer-%5Bv-k%C3%B6ssler-und-ott%5D

    A huge saving on the amazon price !!
  3. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin


    I too know that feeling well.


  4. Deadly Birds

    Deadly Birds Senta a Púa!


    About first Italian flight to Japan, using a special powered Savoia Marchetti S.M. 75. This does´t a non-stop flight.

    June 29 1942 - Takeoff of Guidonia airport (Roma) at 05:30 AM, flying to Zaporoskje (Ukraine), landing at 2:20 PM (same day).

    June 30 1942 - Take off of Zaporoskje at 6:00 PM (GMT) to Pao Tow Chen (Mongolia), landing at 3:00 PM (GMT) of July 1. In Pao Tow Chen, the airplane was repainted with japanese signs to be able to be recognized in Japan and to prevent that eventual Soviet spies discovered the mission.

    July 3 - Take off of Pao Tow Chen at 10:35 AM (GMT) to Tokyo (Japan), arriving in your destination at the same day 20:00 PM (GMT).

    July 16 - Take off of Tokyo at 12:20 GMT arriving in Pao Tow Chen on July 17 at 00:40 AM (GMT)

    July 18 (with Italian signs) - Take off of Pao Tow Chen at 9:45PM (GMT) to Odessa (Rumania), landing on July 20 at 02:10 AM GMT

    July 20 1942- Take off of Odessa at 11:00 AM GMT to Roma, arriving at 5:50PM of the same day.

    James S likes this.
  5. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    The other was Ju-290A-5 with Civilian Lufthansa markings D-AITR. It was flown to Spain on April 6, 1945 by Flugkapitaen Suzalek. There was a manifest for this flight that included Hitler, Himmler, there families and several other high ranking Nazi officials. None got on the plane and it is believed to have carried valuables for safe keeping

    Just wondering about this flight. How did it manage to get out of Germany without being shot down., It was a farily sizable aircraft, and easy to spot. Its amazing how it got out of Germany without being pounced by Allied fighters.
  6. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    I've come across a link to the Junkers Factory at Dessau. It gives some photos but I think that this is where most of the development work of the 290/390 took place:

    Junkers Facilities - Dessau


    Got some info on these flights at last from this site: www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org - Luftwaffe Resource Center - Junker Ju 290

    Now it does source Wiki but might give us somthing to go on chaps.
    The later versions of the aircraft had exhibited very promising characteristics though, with ever-increasing range and heavier armament, including the capability to carry the various guided anti-shipping missiles under development. Three Ju 290s, carrying extra fuel tanks, made a non-stop flight to Manchuria to exchange technical data with the Japanese. They returned with rare metals needed by Germany for special alloys. According to historian Horst Zöller, a postwar German newspaper article in the 1950s reported that three Ju 290 aircraft were converted to civilian airframes with extra fuel capacity and these were transferred to Deutsche Lufthansa (DLH) during the war. These aircraft flew from Bulgaria to Yin-ch'uan also known as Ninghsia, which is 540nm west of Beijing. (Remark by Horst Zoeller: These Flights were planned and were even under work, but they were not performed until the end of WWII).

    Wiki also states under the netry for the JU290 that the Japanese flights were never utilised because they couldnt agree on a flightpath, the Japanese not wanting the Germans to fly over Soviet Airspace for fear of provoking the Soviets.

    Here's the Wiki entry for the JU 290: Junkers Ju 290 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  7. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    And finally here is some photos of the JU-390. A fabulous looking plane, imho.

    Rod's WarBirds
  8. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Whist I realise Wikipedia is not always correct it can also help greatly and I have also been searching under other known Long Range German Planes.

    This entry also mentions the BV 222 being used as a courier plane to Japan.
    This really makes sense as the plane was used operationally in the Arctic.

    Blohm & voss BV 222 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    We seem to be getting somewhere on our quest.


  9. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

  10. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin


    Well found. The site really corroborated what we have been learning over the last few days.
    It would appear that several aircraft types were used over a long period of time.

    I have found this to be a very enjoyable thread to have taken part in.

    Regards to all

  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Interesting note from the article: Also Ju-290A-9 werke # J900182, former Luftwaffe code KR+LN. From February 1944 this aircraft became T9+UK. This aircraft was lost whilst on the ground refueling to strafing fire by four Soviet flown Hurricanes near the village of Utta, near Astrakhan

    What was it doing refuelling near Astrakhan???
  12. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Oh no!
    Are we on another mission? :)

  13. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Well actually I'm beginning to read about a group of Brandenburgers who were meeting Chandra Bose to bring him to Berlin, there were supposedly 290 flights into Iraq, Barcelona and I've seen a post on another forum about a German General supposedly flown into Argentina to build an airfield to recieve JU 290/390 flights!!!! This is all very "Boys Own" stuff indeed! How much if it is true well its anyones guess.
  14. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin


    Like you say, there is so much fiction out there, with some truths sprinkled here and there! Slightly off topic but mentions long range planes.
    If you have not read the book 1945, by Newt Gingrich (ex US speaker of the House of representatives.) and William Forstchen, then I can certainly recommend it.
    It is total fiction but based on charactors and events during the war and involves
    the use of long distance Amerika Bombers.

  15. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Just looked at the Russian Eastfront line position in Feb 1944 and it just proves that the Ju 290A-9 was on a special mission.
    It was so far behind enemy lines, it begs the question of refuelling in a remote village called Utta, which is situated about 170 miles SE of Stalingrad and 100 miles west of Astrakhan!
    Surely this must have been one of the courier planes flying to Japan.
    If it was so far behind enemy lines who was supplying the fuel and how was it transported to the site.
    Throws up more questions, but intriguing all the same.


  16. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    I often wondered what they thought of her - much heavier armed than what they were used to , the Butcher Bird.



    So far I have not seen any photos of Luftwaffe aircraft exported to Japan.
  17. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin


    I think it was more a case of Japanes building the planes under licence.

    Germany providing the paperwork drawings etc, in order that jigs and fixtures could be manufactured, to produce the parts required to built the planes.

    I believe some larger items were shipped by submarine to Japan.

    Looking at the lower photograph, is that a shell hole in the undercarriage cover?


  18. Deadly Birds

    Deadly Birds Senta a Púa!

    Hello to all

    Extract from Wikipédia: Japanese-German pre-World War II industrial co-operation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It is known that Japan and Germany signed agreements on military technological collaboration, both before the 1939 outbreak of World War II, and during the conflict. The first air technology interchange occurred during World War I when Japan joined against Germany on the side of the Allies, and Germany lost a Rumpler Taube at Tsingtao, which the Japanese rebuilt as the Isobe Kaizo Rumpler Taube, and an L.V.G. known to the Japanese as the Seishiki-1, in 1916.

    After the war had ended the Japanese purchased licences for the Hansa-Brandenburg W 33 which was built as the Yokosho Navy Type Hansa in 1922 and as the Aichi Type 15-ko "Mi-go" in 1925.

    During World War II the Japanese Navy traded a reconnaissance seaplane Nakajima E8N "Dave" (Itself a multi-generational development of the (Vought O2U) to Germany which was later seen in British markings on the German raider Orion, and some sources mention the probable dispatch of a Mitsubishi Ki-46 "Dinah", among other weapons.

    In the other direction:
    -The German Focke Wulf company sent a Focke Wulf Fw-190 A-5, and was contracted to send a Focke Wulf Fw 200 V-10(S-1) or Focke-Wulf Ta 152.

    -The Heinkel company sent examples of the Heinkel He 50 A (manufactured in Japan by Aichi as the D1A1, Allied codename "Susie"), Heinkel He 70 "Blitz", Heinkel He 112 (V12,12 B-0, Japanese designation A7He1), Heinkel He 100 D-1 (in Japan designated AXHe1), Heinkel He 116 (V5/6), and Heinkel He 118, Heinkel He 119 V7 and V8, Heinkel HD 25, Heinkel HD 62, Heinkel HD 28, Heinkel HD 23, Heinkel He 162 "Volksjager", Heinkel He 177 A-7 "Greif" designs.

    -The Bucker company sent its Bucker Bu 131 "Jungmann" which in Japan was designated Kokusai Ki-86/Kyushu K9W1.

    -The Dornier Company sent its Dornier Do 15 Wal (in Japan made by Kawasaki as the KDN-1), Dornier Do N built as the Kawasaki Army Type 87 Heavy Bomber, and the Dornier Do C.

    -Fieseler sent the Fieseler Fi-103 (V-1) "Reichenberg" and Fieseler Fi 156 Storch (redesigned by the Japanese and produced as the Kobeseiko Te-Go).

    -The Junkers company sent its Junkers K 37 (developed by the Japanese as the Mitsubishi Ki-1 and Ki-2), Junkers G-38b K51 (Japanese design Mitsubishi Ki-20), Junkers Ju 88 A-1, Junkers Ju 52, Junkers Ju 87 A, Junkers Ju 86 and made sales of its Junkers Ju 290, Junkers Ju 390 and Junkers Ju 488 designs.

    -The Messerschmitt company sold Messerschmitt Me Bf 109 E-3/4, Messerschmitt Me 110, Messerschmitt Me 210 A-2, Messerschmitt Me 163 A/B "Komet" (a Japanese design was based only on partial drawings received was built as the Mitsubishi J8M/ Ki-200 "Shusui" Rocket Intercepter) and Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a whose design influenced Nakajima Ki-201 "Karyu"; and studied the possibility of the use of the Messerschmitt Me 264 - also sent the design of the Messerschmitt Me 509, (which may have influenced the design of the Yokosuka R2Y1 Keiun reconnaissance plane).

    -The Arado Company sent(?) an example of Arado Ar 196 A-4, which had been traded for the Nakajima E8N already mentioned;

    -Focke-Achgelis sent its design Focke-Achgelis Fa 330 Bachstelze, an observation plane for submarines, and other aircraft examples.

    When it comes to aircraft equipment, the Japanese Army Fighter Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien "Tony" used a licence built Daimler-Benz DB-601A engine which resulted in the Allies believing that it was either a Messerschmitt Me Bf 109 or an Italian Macchi C.202 Folgore until they examined captured examples. It was also fitted with Mauser MG 151/20 20mm Cannons also built under licence.

    Japanese Ambassador General Hiroshi Oshima in the name of Japanese Army bought one example of the Panzerkampfwagen PzKpfw VI Ausf E Tiger I Tank with additional equipment, and the Navy received examples of the German Submarine Type IXD-2 Ausf "Monsun" and other submarines, such as the U-181 (Type IXD-2) (Japanese sub I- 501), the U-862 (Type IXD-2), (Japanese submarine I-502), Italian submarines "AQUILA III" (Japanese submarine I-503), and "AQUILA VI" (Japanese submarine I-504), U-219 (Type XB) (Japanese submarine I-505), the U-195 (Type IXD-1) (Japanese submarine I-506), two Type IXC submarines (Japanese submarines RO-500 & RO-501), and Flagvierling 20 mm anti-aircraft cannons, with a disarmed V-2, etc.

    There are other cases of military technology interchange. The Ho-Ru Sp with 47mm AT Cannon resembled the German Hetzer SP vehicle combined with wheel guide pins like T-34 and Heavy Tank Destroyers Ho-Ri I and II, armed with 105 mm Cannon.

    They seem to have been influenced by German Jagd Heavy tanks Ferdinand, Elefant and Jagdtiger and Type 4 Medium Tank "Chi-To" armed with 75mm Cannon and Type 5 Medium Tank "Chi-Ri" armed with 75 or 88mm Cannon, influenced of Panther, Tiger I, and Tiger II German Tanks and Armored Carrier Type 1 Half-Track "Ho-Ha" are similar to the German Armored Carrier SdKFZ 251/1 "HANOMAG".

    In 1935 a German technical mission arrived in Japan to sign some accords and licenses to use the technology in the "Akagi" Class Carrier for the Type "A" (Graf Zeppelin) and "B" (cencelled) aircraft carriers from Deutsche Werke Kiel A. G. They also acquired the technical data on the adaptations to the Messerschmitt Me 109T/E and Junkers Ju 87C/E, for use on such carriers. This technology was also applied in the following aircraft:
    • Fieseler Fi 156
    • Fieseler Fi 167
    • Arado Ar 95/195
    • Arado Ar 96 B
    • Arado Ar 197
    • Heinkel He 50
    • Avia B 534. IV
    To put this in perspective, The Japanese also bought licences and acquired aircraft (sometimes singly and sometimes in large quantities) from most of the western countries. These included the United Kingdom (with which it had a close relationship up until shortly after the end of World War I) and whose De Havilland aircraft were extensively used, France, who supplied a huge variety of aircraft of all types from 1917 through to the 1930s, and whose Nieuport-Delage NiD.29 C.1 fighter provided the Japanese Army Air Force with its first modern fighter aircraft, as well as the bias toward extremely maneuverable aircraft. The United States of America supplied the Douglas DC-4E and Douglas DC-5, North American NA.16 (T-6/SNJ precursor) as well as too many others to list. This resulted in many Japanese aircraft being discounted as being copies of western designs - which from 1935 onwards was rarely the case except for trainers and light transports where development could be accelerated, the Nakajima Ki-201 and Mitsubishi J8M being rare exceptions.

    the months of 1944, Japan was to rely heavily on the Nippon-German Technical Exchange Agreement, obtaining manufacturing rights, intelligence, blueprints, and in some cases, actual airframes for several of Germany's new air weapons. These included the Me 163 "Komet" ( developed as the Mitsubishi J8M Shusui ), the BMW 003 axial-flow jet engine (which was reworked to Japanese standards as the Ne-20 ), information on the Me262 (which resulted in the Nakajima Kikka),data on the Fiesler Fi103R series (which culminated in the development of the Kawanishi Baika ),and even data on the Bachem Ba349 "Natter" point-defense interceptor.

    While the Nakajima Kikka bore some resemblance to the German Me262, it was only superficial, even though the Ne-20 engines which powered the Kikka were the Japanese equivalent of the German BMW 003 engine which initially powered the Me262 prototype. Also, the Kikka was envisioned from the outset not as a fighter, but as a special attack bomber and was only armed with a bomb payload.
    Over Tachikawa Ki-162 The Japanese became involved in the He 162 when the final blow was coming to Germany in 1945.It seems, however, that the Japanese were sent data concerning the He 162 not by submarine or courier, but by wire transmission. This transfer occurred in April 1945. What was sent is not known but certainly could not have been useful in the absence of any form of blueprints, technical drawings, or other more solid data needed to produce such an aircraft as the He 162.

    if considered the Japanese acquired illustrations or pictures of the He 162 from some source and perhaps from the data obtained from the transmissions, could have produced something from it, much as they did the Ne-20 from photographs of the BMW 003 turbojet. If dimensions of the He 162 were sent, it is probable Japanese engineers could have replicated the appearance of the He 162 and either equipped it with the later Ne-330 engine or the Maru pulsejets. Certainly the He 162 lent itself to the use of non-war critical materials in its construction and was relatively simple to assemble and build, all things the Japanese were capable of doing. As it was, with the situation the Japanese air industry found itself in by this time, the task of producing a new aircraft from such sketchy data would have taken more effort than could be spared
    James S likes this.
  19. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

  20. Kiwiguy

    Kiwiguy Member

    There were 2 known Ju-390s used by the KG200. There is very little information on them though. Ju-390V-2 just being noted in Oblt Joachim Eisermanns logbook. According to his logbook he flew the Ju-390V-2 at Rechlin in February 1945. There is no known W.Nr. on it though and no identification numbers.

    The other Ju-390 was a Ju-390V-1 with tail identification markings of GH+UK. It was not used very much and was destroyed at Dessau in 1945. I have a picture of it in my KG200 book in Prague-Ruzyne sometime in the winter of 1944-1945.

    If anyone would like to read up on this and other KG200 aircraft and operations the books is:

    KG 200 The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley

    WWII MISTERIES: What happened with the JU390? - Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

    Japan acquired production rights and plans for the Ju-390 in 1945. According to Speer the Ju-390 flew to Tokyo in late March 1945, from Norway via the "Polar Route" flown by civilian test pilots.

    In November 1944 the Ju-390 V1 (DC+DA) was flown to Dessau and cannabalised for propellers. The remaining Ju-390 V2 (GH + UK) flew to Japan.

    Japanese sources record that the V2 was constructed from Ju-90 V11 werke number J900011

    Prototype Ju-390 V-3 was scrapped in the factory after tests determined it's wings could not bear the weight of three parasite Me328 fighters, full fuel and high G forces.

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