Identification of Ammunition Round?

Sorry I think I've caused us to go adrift somewhat.
Where were we?
THE trousers in the scenario look like denim no belt loops that I can see.
Note: IF we are considering an Officer remember that they bought their own kit having a dress allowance.
Clothing was generally dictated by the Colonel of the Regiment but in combat in many Regiments there was a degree of "slack" especially for specialists like OP officers.
Even O/R's acquired equipment to suit their requirements especially the OP Teams.
If the Americans were around ( we are not far from Nijmegen ) a fair amount of trading was to be expected.
The American Army was "Dry" so a bottle of whisky, beer, or any alcohol was up for grabs.
Anzio was a great trading post where anything could be acquired for a bottle of booze from butter or Coffee to a Jeep.
I suspect NW Europe was no different.

 

They don't look like denim, they look like standard serge 1940 pattern trousers with the dressing pocket removed

Officers could get private purchase battledress but it was still to the basic pattern, although they mainly had standard issue Battledress and if private purchase it was just a slightly finer material and better finish. In terms of trading this wouldn't tend to affect things like basic battledress (except trying to get hold of a nice Canadian set)

 

Aha! That explains another query I had previously..... why my dad's battledress had a private tailor's name in it?

Alas I don't have his battledress trousers for context - perhaps he left them in a house in Blitterswijck !!!

P.S. if you know what the Blue Triangle on his sleeve stands for it would help to solve another mystery... (he was attached to 9 Infantry Brigade Headquarters as Camp Commandant and CO of Defence Platoon)

 

The photo in the first post of this thread, early issue windproof maybe?

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

The label in that BD is a standard issue one, I know it says Prices Tailors but they were a manufacturer of Battledress - I have at least one of their jackets in my collection

 

Definitely not windproofs as they had no fly but a drawstring waist - we seem to be making this more difficult that it actually is

 

The manufacture of military uniforms was contracted out and each contractor applied their own label

 

I thought that the Falklands war taught us that soldiers will find a way to survive in conditions that the backroom boys in planning and purchasing could never imagine.
Italy was a prime example, I bet that NW Europe in winter was no different. The Central figure in my studies wrote to his parents from Tunisia in 1943 for replacement boots after the Germans hijacked his truck at Banana Ridge. It took them ages to arrive but he was eternally grateful and in Sept 1944 died wearing them. Please don't take these men for granted. They were extremely resourceful when they had to be. They wore what they needed for their own survival provided their leaders were sufficiently close at hand to understand their needs and flexible in their approach.

 

One has only to look at some of Jon's Two Types cartoons to see how this applied in N Africa and Italy with front line officers perhaps deviating from regulations even more than the OR. As early as the Peninsular War Wellington expressed the view that he had only two major requirements from uniforms 1 they kept the men as warm and dry as possible 2. They were distinctive from the enemy at a distance or in the fog of war.

 

Uniforms.....my RAF working blue blouse, as I recollect carried the Fifty Shilling Tailor label and stamped 1941.AM

 

Yes and they applied standard pattern labels with item type, size, manufacturers details plus date of a defined material, defined size in a defined location on the item of clothing- the above is an example of that - a bulk manufactured item for a military contract, the comment was about it being a private tailors item which it isn't, a private tailors item would be a bespoke (to standard pattern) made item which would not have one of these labels but the tailors own label

 

What is the evidence for this please?

 

I am in no way taking the men for granted and I take offence at the suggestion I am, I have seen many examples of soldiers displaying variations in kit and equipment and have heard examples from veteran of times they themselves have done so.

However this argument is totally irrelevant to the trousers in the photo - they are 1940 pattern serge trousers - some people seem to be trying to suggest they are other things and they simply aren't - it seems simple, a pair of standard British trousers found in an area the British army served. I have at least 13 pairs of wartime British serge trousers as well as a number of denim trousers and have worn examples of both regularly over a period of around 20 years so am familiar with them.

 

Of what? that this is a bulk produced item? the 70 or so BD Blouses I have and maybe 50 or so other uniform items with these standard labels and the hundreds of others I have seen over the years - whereas tailor made items like officers SD or Greatcoats have individual tailors labels- again examples I own or have seen.

 

From the osprey book on Battledress it has the following

" To quote from the 28 October 1938 specification "each garment shall be fitted (in the same position as the standard pattern) with a stitched on calico or linen label if of calico the edges shall be turned in) giving the broad arrow, name of the article, the size, particulars of measurements, the name of the contractor and the month and year of delivery" these labels were to be found inside the left breast of the blouse"

 

Sorry AB64 I was not intending to offend you. I am not a tailor or expert on uniforms merely saying that not everyone in battle wore clothing to the prescribed dress code.
No offence intended. We all have our own specialities uniforms are not mine.
It seems that the thread has closed and the originator moved on.

 

Back to the Original Post and Questions, a couple of updates for those still interested, the owners of the house (and trousers etc!) in Blitterswijck has taken a closer look and:

• Trousers: A thorough investigation of the trousers unfortunately did not provide a name, however, the back of the right-hand leg at the bottom has been cut away with scissors. It also appears that they were forcibly removed as the bottom 3 fly buttons were ripped/pulled off.
• Round: 9mm, 1943, produced at the Blackpole factory (does this confirm it was for a Sten?)
• Location: The owner of the house is a former veteran and has confirmed it would have been the best place for an OP bearing in mind that the castle tower, church tower and mill had been destroyed prior to this period. Damage to the roof is also still in evidence to this day.

So my general conclusions are:

• this is the same location as the 2 RUR OP that was hit by mortars at 11am on the 29th November 1944 as reported in the 9th British Infantry Brigade War Diary
• the casualty was in the attic at the time and arguably lying face down (looking out?) as was hit in the back of the lower part of his leg
• the trousers don't reveal anything in particular apart from they were cut away to treat an injury and then forcibly removed
• he dropped his 2 RUR cap badge (or more likely they fell out his trouser pocket when removed)
• at some point he had either picked up a British 9mm (Sten?) round or kept one in his pocket as a last reserve?

Which just leaves a couple of final questions:

1. How likely is that he could have been a 2 RUR officer, bearing mind he was located in the Battalion OP and he possibly carried a Sten?
2. Is it possible to track down the Casualty Lists for what would have been the nearest RAP entries around the 29th November 1944, and if so how?

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated....

Thanks.

Quis Separabit

 

No the same round was used in the Browning HP pistol

 

An excuse to post High-Power stuff.

Again, probably meant for a Sten but:

It is believed that over 40,000 Inglis High Powers were delivered to Britain during 1944/45.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that at least some High Powers were used by officers of the British 1st Airborne Division during Operation Market Garden, the attempt to seize vital bridges in Holland in September 1944.


By the time of the largest airborne operation of World War Two, Operation Varsity, in March 1945, large numbers of High Power pistols are known to have been issued to troops in the British 6th Airborne Division.

Shot by both sides – The Browning High Power in WW2

 

Noted, so British 9mm round could have been:

• for Sten (possibly officer)
• for Browning HP Pistol (probably officer) - though 2 RUR were infantry and had been in action almost constantly since D-Day (though admittedly 1 RUR with same cap badge were part of 6th Airborne - but not their area)
• picked up off the ground!

Thanks for all your help.