Indian troops and 'racist' saluting rule

Discussion in 'Burma & India' started by tmac, Jun 17, 2020.

  1. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

    Found this using Google Search

    Senior command of the Indian army was kept in the hands of British officers, trained at Sandhurst and holders of the Kings’ Commission. Indians could only aspire to the Viceroy’s commission which put them in command of squadrons and platoons but no larger units. Indian soldiers were required to salute Indian officers but no British soldiers were expected to do so.

    Source


    But from where it was put in the article, seems like this was a practice for much before Churchill become the Premier. In another article about mutiny on the HMS Hindustan during ww2 there is this sentence

    The British servicemen were not required to salute the Viceroy’s Commissioned Officers (VCO’s)


    Source


    Now I don't know how reliable are these two articles as the first is not giving any source for it while second is from the Indian Defence Review. But in both are mentioned VCOs, not KCIO or ICOs, and this practice could be true. But it is questionable was is "ordered/suggested" by Churchill himself or actually predates him.

    While searching for this found this story too

    For Indian officers who had been trained and entered into the army before independence, the British sergeant-major was a prominent feature of army life. After being commissioned into the army, future General S.K. Sinha recalled as a lieutenant how he was stopped by a British veteran who saluted his new rank. "Sir," he chided Sinha, "I taught you drill for nine months and I think you can do much better than return the salute in such a sloppy manner. It took me 20 years to earn this badge on my wrist and it is not like one of those lemon drops that you have got after nine months. You go back ten paces and I will also go back ten paces. I will salute you again as I pass you and this time you must return my salute smartly."

    Source
     
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  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Correct, VCOs were not saluted by BORs. The missing piece of the jigsaw is whether or not VCOs were saluted by IORs? I don't believe they were but I haven't seen anything concrete one way or the other.

    I'm sure there were many British subalterns who could tell similar stories about their ongoing education from Warrant Officers. Once again, the racial element is being overplayed out of context, as seems to be the norm these days.
     
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  3. Jagan

    Jagan Junior Member

    I found the letter, it is by James Grigg, State secretary for war - attaching it in its full glroy.
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Classic politician's answer: we're not saying never, but the timing is simply sub-optimal.
     
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  5. tmac

    tmac Senior Member

    Thanks, everyone for your further contributions. I've now found that Churchill's ‘brown man’ outburst took place at a Cabinet meeting in July 1942 and was recorded in the diary of Leo Amery. As well as being India Secretary, he was one of Churchill’s oldest friends – they were at school together.

    I think the subject being discussed was whether Indian Army officers could have power of punishment over British soldiers, being allowed to sit on courts martial. Here's the relevant extract from Amery’s diary …

    In Cabinet Winston let himself go with a flood of childish almost out of date objections to the poor much harassed British soldier having to face the extra humiliation of being ordered about by a brown man, etc … We fought tooth and nail for half an hour or more and I could not help telling him that on this question he was just a mass of out of date prejudice. Except Grigg, no one really agreed with him, but they none of them will speak out when Winston is in a tantrum.’

    A little later, Churchill told Amery: ‘I hate indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.’

    Later in 1942, despite opposition from the War Office, Indian officers were at last allowed to sit on the courts martial of British soldiers.
     
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  6. Jagan

    Jagan Junior Member

    Love it when all records seem to agree with each other.. :)
     
  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

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  8. Son of LAC

    Son of LAC Active Member

    Kenneth "Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it in for me" Williams had this to say from his position as a lance-corporal.

    KW1.png
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    KW3.png

    Just Williams, an Autobiography. I've copied this from archive.org because, as usual, I've mislaid my own copy of the book.
     

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