Indian war establishment

Discussion in 'British Indian Army' started by Distinction of the badges, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Hi there,
    I am looking for a couple of war establishments for various Indian units which are as below:
    a. Command HQ (e.g. Eastern Command/ Southern Command)
    b. Fortress Company, I.E. (unit found in WO212/365)
    c. Pioneer Battalion (WO212/365)
    d. Indian Bullock Transport Company (WO212/365)
    e. Cattle Conducting Section (WO212/365)
    f. Cattle Stock Section (WO212/365)
    g. Cattle Control Section (WO212/365)
    h. Cattle Store Depot (WO212/365)
    i. Mule Company (WO212/365)
    j. Ambulance Train (WO212/365, WO212/364)
    k. Jeep company (WO212/364)
    l. Buffalo Transport Company (WO212/364)
    Can anyone please help to get the WE of above mentioned Indian units?
    Regards
    Shams
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I'm guessing there will be a stampede for these if there are Indian WEs present in files at Kew!

    More reliably, members Drew5233 and psywar.org offer copying services but they tend to do whole files rather than hunting for odd pages.

    Are you aware of any other sources for WEs of Indian Army units, particularly the teeth arms, please?
     
  3. Thanks. Do you know any WE doc reference number, please?
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The WO references are the National Archive files. Sometimes individual pages are numbered but that doesn't help if your source doesn't mention them.

    The individual WEs should have a reference number. It will probably mimic the convoluted British system.

    Though if you're asking me for references of WEs I'm interested in then I could certainly dig some out...
     
  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  6. JITTER PARTY

    JITTER PARTY Well-Known Member

    I'm confused.
    Those WO 212 documents are OBs and Location Statements, not War Establishments.
    For the last twenty or thirty years I have been trying to come to terms with the idea that Indian War Establisments no longer exist.
    Please tell me that I'm wrong!
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I posted that info not knowing what they were or if you knew of there existence or not

    Sorry for any confusion

    TD
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I'm still unclear as to exactly what's being referenced but it seems feasible that WE info could be in a orbat file. Or it might just be orbats that state a WE reference.
     
  9. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    I think I mentioned on another thread a while ago that the closest I ever came to Indian Army WEs was the possibility of them being held at the British Library. It was a long time ago and regrettably I did not keep a copy of the few messages exchanged. Not was I able to secure a researcher (first one would have cost my entire budget for a recce, second one seemed helpful but stopped responding to emails).

    I'd agree that the WO212 would more likely contain details of who was where and when, rather than full War Establishments. The term Organisation Tables can mean different things in my experience, in British Army usage I would have probably reckoned on it showing the structure of units under HQs, but not detailed information on the internal organisation of said units.

    Gary
     
    Tricky Dicky likes this.
  10. JITTER PARTY

    JITTER PARTY Well-Known Member

    I've had a look at quite a few WO 212 files and didn't see any WE. I'm not sure why the original post included those references, hence my confusion.
    I used to visit the IOL records, both at Blackfriars and at the 'new' BL site. I'd like to think that if they were there I might have found them. I reiterate; we may need to come to terms with the fact that they no longer exist.
     
  11. IKE26

    IKE26 Active Member

    I can tell you that 34th mule company establishment in 1943 in Italy was nearly 340 men.
     
  12. IKE26

    IKE26 Active Member

  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    As Gary will attest, this reprint has very basic WE information for four types of battalion: Indian and British for both MT and mixed MT and AT (Animal Transport) roles:

    Infantry Training: part 1: The infantry battalion (52 p.) India | Rob van Meel - Re-Print Military Literature

    Given that the Indian Army was also supplying 'conventional' units for the Med, and it experimented quite freely with different divisional structures, I think any information on WEs could be very theatre and time specific.
     
  14. idler

    idler GeneralList

  15. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Yes, the outline organisations in that are very brief, and all I've ever seen on the subject.

    Indian Inf Bn (Animal and Mechanical Transport);

    Bn HQ - 57
    Admin Coy;
    Coy HQ - 7
    QM Pl - 36
    Medical Pl - 21
    Tpt Pl - 92
    HQ Coy;
    Coy HQ - 10
    Sig Pl - 36
    Mortar Pl - 43
    Carrier Pl - 22
    Pio Pl - 24
    Four Rifle Coys, each;
    Coy HQ - 10
    Three Pls, each - 39 (Pl HQ, 1 VCO, 5 IOR, three Secs, each 1 NCO + 10 men)

    Transport;
    20 Bicycles
    9 Motorcycles
    2 Jeeps
    1 Karryall
    24 15-cwt trucks
    15 carriers (tracked)
    52 Mules
    7 Ponies

    Indian Inf Bn (Mechanical Transport);

    Personnel - 860 all ranks;

    Bn HQ - 57
    Admin Coy;
    Coy HQ - 7
    QM Pl - 36
    Medical Pl - 21
    Tpt Pl - 55
    HQ Coy;
    Coy HQ - 7
    Sig Pl - 36
    Mortar Pl - 46
    Carrier Pl - 23
    Pio Pl - 24
    Four Rifle Coys, each;
    Coy HQ - 10
    Three Pls, each - 42 (Pl HQ, 1 VCO, 5 IOR, three Secs, each 1 NCO + 11 men)

    Transport;
    12 Bicycles
    9 Motorcycles
    19 Jeeps
    1 Karryall
    24 15-cwt trucks
    15 carriers (tracked)

    Weapons;
    74 pistols
    665 rifles
    2 twin LMGs
    7 Carrier Pl LMGs
    37 LMGs, other
    90 machine carbines
    12 mortars, 2-in
    6 mortars, 3-in
    9 Atk rifles

    No dates for either and the summary details for the A & MT Bn are unreadable. Also the personnel figures for the MT Bn don't add up to 860.

    The only other thing I've seen re Indian Army org is a high level summary table that includes an 'Indian Standard' Division circa 1945. It does not detail units within the Div, just totals for vehicles and weapons;

    Rifles - 12,727
    Machine carbines - 4413
    LMGs - 663
    MMGs - 48
    2-in mortars - 62
    3-in mortars - 102
    PIAT - 33
    Atk guns - 36 (no detail of type)
    25-prs - 48
    3.7-in how - 12

    Carriers - 42
    Motorcycles - 192
    Cars - 2
    Jeeps - 1008 (cars 2-4 seat may be issued in lieu)
    15-cwt trucks - 45
    3-ton lorries - 357
    Ambulances - 18
    Tractors - 94 (all types)

    Sorry I couldn't be more vague :unsure:

    Gary
     
  16. IKE26

    IKE26 Active Member

    Thank you Gary

    any ideas of these:

    • Field Ambulance
    • Provost company
    • Workshop unit
    • Transport unit
    • Signals
     
  17. IKE26

    IKE26 Active Member

    I can speak about 8th indian division infantry battalions in 1943: their w.e strenght was 830 men (troops+ non combatants enrolled)
     
  18. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    I'm afraid not, that's really the sum of my info in that one post!

    Gary
     
  19. Thanks all.

    First I will clear the doubt of giving reference of WO212 files. Certainly, you are correct, WO212 are not for WE. I put this reference by mentioning that the unit found in WO212/... Later I asked for WE of the unit. These units are not common in 21st Army Group, but special in Indian troops. Due to terrain or food habit etc. Still, such units exist in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh armies. Some of us may think that these units did not exist in the army. That's why I put the references of the file where I got such units in OBs.

    I got some reference of WE in several OBs:
    I.E. Battalion - III/67/5
    Indian Mule Company III/16/5
    Indian Cattle Stock Section III/8/3 and ME/482/1
    Indian Ambulance Company III/79/4

    Regards
    Shams
     
  20. Tony Chadwick

    Tony Chadwick New Member

    Hi Guys have just joined and this may not help but when I was doing my research for my web site someone told me the WEs for Indian Army were in the Colonial Office files
    Tony
     
    Gary Kennedy likes this.

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