Infantry Battalions in Tunisia, War Establishment

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Bob_Mackenzie, Apr 24, 2015.

  1. Bob_Mackenzie

    Bob_Mackenzie Member

    Gents

    WO212/283 has the OB of the 1st Army in Tunisia and gives the War Establishment number of "II/232/1" for the infantry battalions

    Does anyone have deatils of that establish ment? Failing that does anyone know where the WE's are kept in The National Archive? I failed miserably to find them

    Thanks

    Bob
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Could there be a typo in that reference as BayonetStrength only refers to II/233/2 and II/233/3?

    If that's the case, II/233/1 was the short-lived three-rifle-company battalion.
     
  3. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    My understanding is that II/233/1 was the new ref number for the existing Inf Bn WE II/1931/12F/2 (ACI 4th June 1941). A new ref system was brought in in 1942 for units found in Abn, Inf and Armd formations, and numerous WEs were renumbered accordingly. The odd three Coy version I think was only used by Home Forces.

    WEs are in the WO24 series at Kew, WO24/935 to 957 cover the wartime period. My write up of the Bn is on the page linked above, and perhaps Aixman can post you up the full WE if he sees this thread?

    There do seem to have been a number of changes made to the 1941 WE, with Bns pulling together an Atk Pl with six 2-pr guns, and I've seen a suggestion they also formed an MMG Pl as the Inf Divs didn't have the usual MG Bn due to the state of flux as they attempted to convert to the Support Bn. I'm going somewhat from memory on this, so be gentle if I'm wrong!

    Gary
     
    Aixman likes this.
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I've copied a fair few OOB's over the years and checking my records there appears to be no pattern as such. I've copied Order of Battle files in WO 199, WO 201, WO 203, WO 204 and WO 212
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  6. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Sorry, no such numbers in Kew's WO 24 900 something (933 to 970) series! I checked them all and hold copies of the years 1931 to 1945, some estimated 50,000 pages.

    No II/232 at all (no version).
    No II/233/1, only versions 2 and 3.

    II/233/2 is effective from 30.04.1943 an says "... supersedes W.E. II/233/1".

    Awfully sorry!

    Cheers
    Aixman
     
  7. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Here is the WE II/12F/2 Gary mentioned:
    IMG_3040.JPG
    IMG_3041.JPG
    IMG_3042.JPG
    IMG_3043.JPG
    IMG_3044.JPG
    IMG_3045.JPG
    IMG_3046.JPG
     
    Bob_Mackenzie and dbf like this.
  8. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Having been to Kew two weeks ago, I had not the time to check or even index the new photos, with some effort and much luck the somewhat astonishing (at least for Gary regarding the volume - I instead of II - see post 16) results:
    (Thank you for your hint referring renumbering, Gary!)

    Ia.
    A.C.I. 1948 of 1942 (16.09.1942)(refers to No. 1725 of 1942)
    Renumbered ...
    Old: I/8E/1 An Infantry Battalion (Higher Establishment)
    New: II/233/1

    IMG_4122.JPG
    IMG_4123.JPG
     
  9. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Ib.
    Adding the original WE I/8E/1

    IMG_2962.JPG
    IMG_2963.JPG
    IMG_2964.JPG
    IMG_2965.JPG
    IMG_2966.JPG
    IMG_2967.JPG
    IMG_2968.JPG
     
    Bob_Mackenzie likes this.
  10. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    II.
    The first post and title of this thread refers not to No. II/233, but II/232. To make it more complicated, under this number I found traces of another Inf BN (Higher Est.), sadly of course without the WE itself.

    A.C.I. 2716 of 1942 (estimated December 1942)
    II/232/1 Infantry Battalion (Higher Establishment) cancelled
     
  11. Bob_Mackenzie

    Bob_Mackenzie Member

    Gents

    Thanks for detailed replies

    @Aixman - Awesome thanks very much!

    @Gary - thanks for the refs. for some reason "discovery" did not un-earth them for me

    David Hughs et al in their WW2 Orgainsiational series talk about each bttn getting 2pdr, in the middle east.

    However it appears that The bttns sent to Tunisia had 6pdrs, which dosn't agree with Aixman's WE. From WO 204/282

    [​IMG]

    It seems these were Portee'd and there were 4 on strength - From 1st east Surrey's War Diary:

    [​IMG]

    They aso had unofficial MMG plts (fWO 204/282)

    [​IMG]

    Cheers

    Bob
     
  12. Bob_Mackenzie

    Bob_Mackenzie Member

    Turns out some (all?) battalions had the 2pdr not the 6pdr at least at the start of the campaign, again from a the East Surrey's war diary, about the action at Trebourba (1st Dec 42)

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Bob_Mackenzie

    Bob_Mackenzie Member

    @Aixman

    Do you have II/231/1? This is the WE quoted for the Motor battalions sent to Tunisia

    Thanks

    Bob
     
  14. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Of course (not):
    ;)

    It is the same thing of re-numbering mentioned in post 8. You will find it on the second photo.
    I/8D/2 became II/231/1.
    So here come I/8D/2

    IMG_5299.JPG
    IMG_5300.JPG
    IMG_5301.JPG
    IMG_5302.JPG
    IMG_5303.JPG
    IMG_5304.JPG
    IMG_5305.JPG
    IMG_5306.JPG
     
    Bob_Mackenzie likes this.
  15. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    And here the solution for the apparently short lived II/232/1:
    re-numbered from II/12F/1 (see post 8, 2nd photo)
    So here II/12/F/1

    IMG_5562.JPG
    IMG_5563.JPG
    IMG_5564.JPG
    IMG_5565.JPG
    IMG_5566.JPG
    IMG_5567.JPG
    IMG_5568.JPG
     
    Owen, dbf and Bob_Mackenzie like this.
  16. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Getting mad!

    I should have remembered something I learned 35 years ago: read each paragraph to its end before judging!
    So Gary is - of course ;) - right in the end! Forgive me!

    II/232/1 is the result of re-numbering
    - I/8E/1 as well as
    - II/12F/2.
     
    dbf likes this.
  17. Bob_Mackenzie

    Bob_Mackenzie Member

    Aixman

    Thanks for taking the time to post so may WE's, I appreciate it

    However I'm now a tad confused.

    II/12/F/1 is from April 1940
    WE I/8E/1 is from May 1941

    II/232/1 is a renumbering of them both?

    Which begs the question which organisation did II/232/1 follow - I presume its the later?

    Thanks

    Bob
     
  18. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    It is II/12F/2 (not /1), and it is of 04.06.41.
    I think, without checking, the will be identical.
     
  19. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Aixman,

    1000 apologies I have accidentally given you a minus point. Not sure how but everyone knows I am an idiot with technical matters. Perhaps a kind moderator can correct it.

    Excellent work.

    Mike
     
    Aixman likes this.
  20. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Mike,

    thanks anyway!!!
    High praise for me from your side!
    Aixman
     

Share This Page